Learning Dzogchen online

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:47 pm

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:17 pm
So I think this is still on topic... I have never taken refuge to a teacher before, and Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche offered them last night at the end of the teachings. I took them online but obviously wasn't there in person - however, I clipped a little bit of hair myself and touched my own head with a buddha statue I have as Rinpoche was doing the same in person online.

I personally look at this as if it "counts" so to speak but wanted to get others' input.
Since refuge is from the shravakayana, it does not require transmission, or even a formal ceremony. As soon as you give birth to it in your mindstream, it counts. Doing a formal ceremony with a master in person is a nice auspicious circumstance, but doesn't make one's refuge more legitimate than what you did.
LoveFromColorado wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:17 pm
Also, as a part of the preliminaries for the practice being offered in the teaching are the following:

1. Mandala offering
2. Guru yoga - I have studied this through FPMT's Discovering Buddhism courses but don't have a specific teaching

I know what these are and have studied them from a high level but am curious if there are specific teachings by Rinpoche in this regard. I don't have specific texts on these practices.

Lastly, I assume the Vajrasattva is the general Vajrasattva practice, correct?

Thank you!!
Matt
When you mention mandala offering, Vajrasattva, and guru yoga, did Rinpoche give a reading transmission for those practices? In what way did those subjects come up in the teaching?

Pero
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Pero » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:58 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:47 pm
Since refuge is from the shravakayana, it does not require transmission, or even a formal ceremony. As soon as you give birth to it in your mindstream, it counts. Doing a formal ceremony with a master in person is a nice auspicious circumstance, but doesn't make one's refuge more legitimate than what you did.
I'm not totally sure everyone agrees with that. :smile:
I personally do, but at the first teaching I ever attended I had a talk with one of the students of the center where the teaching was and she was adamant you need to go through the formal ritual to have taken refuge. She was a Gelug student. I have also seen (though indeed just a couple times) during some registrations for empowerments questions like "where and with whom you have taken refuge? what's your refuge name?" :shrug:
It was the major reason I went through the ceremony when the chance arose (a couple weeks after that talk actually), so people couldn't bug me about it in the future. :D
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

LoveFromColorado
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by LoveFromColorado » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:03 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:47 pm
When you mention mandala offering, Vajrasattva, and guru yoga, did Rinpoche give a reading transmission for those practices? In what way did those subjects come up in the teaching?
They were just the preliminaries for the text he is offering a transmission for. I *think* Vajrasattva does not require empowerment and I have studied guru yoga in a generic sense. There were no clarifications on what to practice specifically, just that they are prerequisites.

LoveFromColorado
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by LoveFromColorado » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm

FWIW the text is Naturally Liberating Whatever You Meet.

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:18 pm

Pero wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:58 pm
I'm not totally sure everyone agrees with that. :smile:
I personally do, but at the first teaching I ever attended I had a talk with one of the students of the center where the teaching was and she was adamant you need to go through the formal ritual to have taken refuge. She was a Gelug student. I have also seen (though indeed just a couple times) during some registrations for empowerments questions like "where and with whom you have taken refuge? what's your refuge name?" :shrug:
It was the major reason I went through the ceremony when the chance arose (a couple weeks after that talk actually), so people couldn't bug me about it in the future. :D
How strange. One doesn't even have to have taken refuge to take an empowerment, since refuge is given in the course of the empowerment. Were those registrations for Nyingma empowerments?

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:41 pm

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:03 pm
They were just the preliminaries for the text he is offering a transmission for. I *think* Vajrasattva does not require empowerment and I have studied guru yoga in a generic sense. There were no clarifications on what to practice specifically, just that they are prerequisites.
At first I was confused as to what you meant by preliminaries "for" the text. After taking a look at the text I see what you're saying is to practice the instructions in it, it says one should first do ngondro. So that means you need to establish a relationship with a lama you come to deeply trust, and receive at the very least a reading transmission for whatever ngondro text they recommend and get started with those accumulations--traditionally 100,000 recitations of each section along with 100,000 prostrations done either during the refuge or guru yoga section. To do guru yoga, one must have a guru, since the essence of that practice is to mingle one's mind with the wisdom mind of a specific human guru(s) one received the transmission from; it's not the kind of thing one begins without having formed a relationship with a teacher that one intends to continue to deeply cultivate. Generally speaking, I think one could begin the other sections as soon as one had received the reading transmission from any qualified lama, although the general thrust of ngondro teachings leans toward basically practicing all the sections similarly to guru yoga, so ideally one would do it that way. And yes, you could practice the version of Vajrasattva in ngondro with reading transmission alone, although it would be even better to receive a Vajrasattva empowerment to be able to transform the practice from an outer visualization to a self-visualization at the end. But we gotta work with our circumstances; hopefully, we have a lifetime to go deeper and deeper into practice, so getting started ASAP andmaking use of whatever time we have is best. Good luck!

LoveFromColorado
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by LoveFromColorado » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:20 pm

Awesome, thanks for the clarification!

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:29 pm

No prob. :)

Pero
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Pero » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:11 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Pero wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:58 pm
I'm not totally sure everyone agrees with that. :smile:
I personally do, but at the first teaching I ever attended I had a talk with one of the students of the center where the teaching was and she was adamant you need to go through the formal ritual to have taken refuge. She was a Gelug student. I have also seen (though indeed just a couple times) during some registrations for empowerments questions like "where and with whom you have taken refuge? what's your refuge name?" :shrug:
It was the major reason I went through the ceremony when the chance arose (a couple weeks after that talk actually), so people couldn't bug me about it in the future. :D
How strange. One doesn't even have to have taken refuge to take an empowerment, since refuge is given in the course of the empowerment. Were those registrations for Nyingma empowerments?
I can't remember for sure now (this was years back) but I don't think they were Nyingma. I've also seen some empowerments where there weren't any questions but it was still specified that one had to have taken refuge before receiving it. I think there was a discussion on the forums in the past about this topic too.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Aryjna
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Aryjna » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:30 am

Pero wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:11 am
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Pero wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:58 pm
I'm not totally sure everyone agrees with that. :smile:
I personally do, but at the first teaching I ever attended I had a talk with one of the students of the center where the teaching was and she was adamant you need to go through the formal ritual to have taken refuge. She was a Gelug student. I have also seen (though indeed just a couple times) during some registrations for empowerments questions like "where and with whom you have taken refuge? what's your refuge name?" :shrug:
It was the major reason I went through the ceremony when the chance arose (a couple weeks after that talk actually), so people couldn't bug me about it in the future. :D
How strange. One doesn't even have to have taken refuge to take an empowerment, since refuge is given in the course of the empowerment. Were those registrations for Nyingma empowerments?
I can't remember for sure now (this was years back) but I don't think they were Nyingma. I've also seen some empowerments where there weren't any questions but it was still specified that one had to have taken refuge before receiving it. I think there was a discussion on the forums in the past about this topic too.
Refuge is necessary in any case, but I think they do not necessarily mean having taken it formally in a ceremony. ChNNR talks about this misconception but I don't remember the exact text.

Pero
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Pero » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:42 am

Aryjna wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:30 am
Pero wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:11 am
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:18 pm


How strange. One doesn't even have to have taken refuge to take an empowerment, since refuge is given in the course of the empowerment. Were those registrations for Nyingma empowerments?
I can't remember for sure now (this was years back) but I don't think they were Nyingma. I've also seen some empowerments where there weren't any questions but it was still specified that one had to have taken refuge before receiving it. I think there was a discussion on the forums in the past about this topic too.
Refuge is necessary in any case, but I think they do not necessarily mean having taken it formally in a ceremony. ChNNR talks about this misconception but I don't remember the exact text.
Yes I know but it seemed to me this was not universally accepted.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Aryjna
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Aryjna » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:47 am

Pero wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:42 am
Aryjna wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:30 am
Pero wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:11 am

I can't remember for sure now (this was years back) but I don't think they were Nyingma. I've also seen some empowerments where there weren't any questions but it was still specified that one had to have taken refuge before receiving it. I think there was a discussion on the forums in the past about this topic too.
Refuge is necessary in any case, but I think they do not necessarily mean having taken it formally in a ceremony. ChNNR talks about this misconception but I don't remember the exact text.
Yes I know but it seemed to me this was not universally accepted.
It seems so. It is weird as refuge is part of an empowerment anyway as was said above.

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:23 pm

On further reflection, I think I can see why some lamas may require refuge to have been taken previously before the empowerment; I’m sure they’re trying to ensure that people receiving empowerment are already serious about taking up the Buddhist path and not just spiritual consumers who are are most likely to grow bored with the path as soon as the novelty fades.

LoveFromColorado
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by LoveFromColorado » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:10 am

Hi all, in the event that anyone watched all of the Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche talks like I did (live), wow, what a teaching!

We only made it about halfway through the text - is that typical in a transmission like this one? Should that be considered the full transmission of the text? There are some practices later in the text that Rinpoche did not discuss, and I want to be sure that his transmission included these latter portions of the text before I start reading them more deeply and contemplate practicing them.

I hope that question makes sense - thank you!!

Tata1
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Tata1 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:01 am

I was there in person and the text was given in its entirety. Dont know about the webcast tho

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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by heart » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:36 am

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:10 am
Hi all, in the event that anyone watched all of the Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche talks like I did (live), wow, what a teaching!

We only made it about halfway through the text - is that typical in a transmission like this one? Should that be considered the full transmission of the text? There are some practices later in the text that Rinpoche did not discuss, and I want to be sure that his transmission included these latter portions of the text before I start reading them more deeply and contemplate practicing them.

I hope that question makes sense - thank you!!
The rest of the text was given during a retreat a few days later that wasn't webcasted. I would say that the transmission you got covered the parts you got so don't do the practices in the later part. I have been Rinpoches student for many years and this is not unusual, sometimes he will teach a Dzogchen text and stop just before the Tögal part for example.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Pero
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Pero » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:04 am

heart wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:36 am
LoveFromColorado wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:10 am
Hi all, in the event that anyone watched all of the Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche talks like I did (live), wow, what a teaching!

We only made it about halfway through the text - is that typical in a transmission like this one? Should that be considered the full transmission of the text? There are some practices later in the text that Rinpoche did not discuss, and I want to be sure that his transmission included these latter portions of the text before I start reading them more deeply and contemplate practicing them.

I hope that question makes sense - thank you!!
The rest of the text was given during a retreat a few days later that wasn't webcasted. I would say that the transmission you got covered the parts you got so don't do the practices in the later part. I have been Rinpoches student for many years and this is not unusual, sometimes he will teach a Dzogchen text and stop just before the Tögal part for example.

/magnus
Actually Rinpoche gave the lung for the whole text on the second day.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Grigoris
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by Grigoris » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:25 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:18 pm
How strange. One doesn't even have to have taken refuge to take an empowerment, since refuge is given in the course of the empowerment. Were those registrations for Nyingma empowerments?
Ummmmm... Αt every single empowerment I have been to (Nyingma and Kagyu) there has been an "official" Refuge ceremony BEFORE the empowerments are given.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by heart » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:02 pm

Pero wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:04 am
heart wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:36 am
LoveFromColorado wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:10 am
Hi all, in the event that anyone watched all of the Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche talks like I did (live), wow, what a teaching!

We only made it about halfway through the text - is that typical in a transmission like this one? Should that be considered the full transmission of the text? There are some practices later in the text that Rinpoche did not discuss, and I want to be sure that his transmission included these latter portions of the text before I start reading them more deeply and contemplate practicing them.

I hope that question makes sense - thank you!!
The rest of the text was given during a retreat a few days later that wasn't webcasted. I would say that the transmission you got covered the parts you got so don't do the practices in the later part. I have been Rinpoches student for many years and this is not unusual, sometimes he will teach a Dzogchen text and stop just before the Tögal part for example.

/magnus
Actually Rinpoche gave the lung for the whole text on the second day.
Ok, I stand corrected. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

LoveFromColorado
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Re: Learning Dzogchen online

Post by LoveFromColorado » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:05 pm

Pero wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:04 am
heart wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:36 am
LoveFromColorado wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:10 am
Hi all, in the event that anyone watched all of the Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche talks like I did (live), wow, what a teaching!

We only made it about halfway through the text - is that typical in a transmission like this one? Should that be considered the full transmission of the text? There are some practices later in the text that Rinpoche did not discuss, and I want to be sure that his transmission included these latter portions of the text before I start reading them more deeply and contemplate practicing them.

I hope that question makes sense - thank you!!
The rest of the text was given during a retreat a few days later that wasn't webcasted. I would say that the transmission you got covered the parts you got so don't do the practices in the later part. I have been Rinpoches student for many years and this is not unusual, sometimes he will teach a Dzogchen text and stop just before the Tögal part for example.

/magnus
Actually Rinpoche gave the lung for the whole text on the second day.
He did, hence my small confusion :)

I really liked his translators too, especially the woman during the first couple of days

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