non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

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Void
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non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Void » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:29 pm

During dzogchen meditation, the last two times after having meditated sitting (calm abiding) somewhat beyond an hour, a pretty intense perception of heat appeared inside my body. The first time, I felt the heat arise only in my arms, but the second time, the heat was appearing inside my whole body. The sensation of heat was pretty strong and clear, but disappeared immedeately when I moved my body a little bit. Obviously the sensation of heat was not a physical heat. Then, when I continued the meditation, the heat was appearing again. Has someone an idea, what the meaning of this sensation is during dzogchen / calm abiding meditation? I of course was not practicing tummo and was breathing very calmly. :smile:

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Vasana » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:38 pm

It could just be nothing, a random physiological occurence or a circumstantial Nyam. (Or a fleeting combination of these) In The book on Shamatha translated by Allan Wallace, Dudjom Lingpa speaks about the various kinds of nyams people are more likely to experience according to their physical constitution.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Void » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:08 pm

Vasana wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:38 pm
In The book on Shamatha translated by Allan Wallace, Dudjom Lingpa speaks about the various kinds of nyams people are more likely to experience according to their physical constitution.
The only text I am aware that Dudjom Lingpa talks about the appearance of heat during meditation is in his leap-over instructions.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Vasana » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:14 pm

Heat means different things in different contexts as you probably know
As do 'Nyams'. 'Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Düdjom Lingpa's Vajra Essense'is the book I'm referring to in regards to typical nyams per medical constitution. (Unrestricted book)
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Void » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:09 pm

Vasana wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:14 pm
Heat means different things in different contexts as you probably know
As do 'Nyams'. 'Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Düdjom Lingpa's Vajra Essense'is the book I'm referring to in regards to typical nyams per medical constitution. (Unrestricted book)
Thank you for your input! I looked up the book and it speaks of:
You will become still, in an unfluctuating state in which you experience bliss like the warmth of a fire, luminosity like the dawn, and nonconceptuality like an ocean unmoved by waves.
"warmth like a fire" probably describes my experience correctly, so most likely that's it. :smile:

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Void » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:23 pm

I don't know what "nonconceptuality like an ocean unmoved by waves" is supposed to mean, but if "luminosity like the dawn" is supposed to mean glowing blue mists and circles and bright blue and white dots, then this would fit my case pretty well.
Those light appearances happen all the time during my meditation and I do my best to not get distracted by them, but the heat was completely new to me.
Well, even if those appearances are nothing important, I hope that they are at least signs that I am meditating correctly, as the text seems to indicate...

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Norwegian » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:34 pm

You should perhaps communicate these things with the teacher from whom you received Dzogchen, because it seems you need some specific clarification.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Vasana » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:39 pm

ZOOM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:23 pm
I don't know what "nonconceptuality like an ocean unmoved by waves" is supposed to mean, but if "luminosity like the dawn" is supposed to mean glowing blue mists and circles and bright blue and white dots, then this would fit my case pretty well.
Those light appearances happen all the time during my meditation and I do my best to not get distracted by them, but the heat was completely new to me.
Well, even if those appearances are nothing important, I hope that they are at least signs that I am meditating correctly, as the text seems to indicate...
The quotes you shared are referring to generic descriptions of the 3 experiences - Bliss, clarity and non-conceptualuality. They can either aid your practice or cause deviation. As for the the other blue mist appearances, these could be practice related or not.

If you know anything about subtle anatomy, the 3 humours,5 elements, karma and you are aware that there are countlessly inconceivable other influencing factors at play in any given moment of experience, you won't be too amazed or caught up in circumstantial experiences if or when they occur. As soon as you have an experience that you decide is 'good' and generate attachment, however subtle, it can become a hindrance. You feel you would like to repeat it again or that it's an indication of something positive and feel disappointed if it stops. That's just practicing attachment. If you're just practicing shamatha you don't need to give visions or sensations any special consideration.

If you have received Dzogchen teachings from a teacher, you will know what the main points of practice are and what to do. Sooner or later you will need to rely on the expertise of a living master.


'Meditation experiences, like well-water in summer -
They may increase, they may lessen.
Without chasing after rainbows as children do,
May I truly practice the sublime teachings.'
- Dudjom Rinpoche
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Void » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:52 am

You will become still, in an unfluctuating state in which you experience bliss like the warmth of a fire, luminosity like the dawn, and nonconceptuality like an ocean unmoved by waves.
In retrospect and in respect to the other two examples given, the text rather uses "warmth of a fire" as an pictorial allegory for "bliss" and most likely doesn't describe the phenomenon of the actual subjective experience of heat or warmth at all... :|
So the cheer to have found an explanation ("nyams") was a bit premature.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:57 am

Nyams in general refers to all possible kinds of practice related, subjective experiences and not just those 3.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Void » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:18 am

Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:57 am
Nyams in general refers to all possible kinds of practice related, subjective experiences and not just those 3.
Yes, and the only two practices which in literature seem to be linked to that kind of experience are thögal and tummo.
And my practice doesn't include vase breath or penetrative concentration at points at my central channel.
In other words: Most likely, I advanced naturally in my shamatha practice through vipassana up to trekchöd, found the natural state, and am effectively practicing thögal now. A natural progression whose possibility is actually described in literature.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Void » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:51 am

Vasana wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:39 pm
Sooner or later you will need to rely on the expertise of a living master.
Sure, If there was a dzogchen teacher who had successfully lead at least one of his western students at least to the result of "small rainbow body", I already would have applied to become his/her student.
As this is not the case until now according to my informations, it seems to make more sense to me to simply study every authentic dzogchen literature translated into english that I am able to acquire to power my personal practice.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:57 am

ZOOM wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:18 am
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:57 am
Nyams in general refers to all possible kinds of practice related, subjective experiences and not just those 3.
Yes, and the only two practices which in literature seem to be linked to that kind of experience are thögal and tummo.
Not if you understand the infinite diversity of possible Nyams.
ZOOM wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:18 am
In other words: Most likely, I advanced naturally in my shamatha practice through vipassana up to trekchöd, found the natural state, and am effectively practicing thögal now. A natural progression whose possibility is actually described in literature.
Its impossible for anyone to know what experience someone else online has had so I won't agree or disagree with you but I wouldn't get so caught up in these speculations. Visionary experiences do *not* imply that you are effectively practicing thogal. Like I said in a previous post, there are countless factors at play behind Nyams. I listed some of them. If you have confidently found the natural state then you will know you have to train in 'sustaining the continuity' of that recognition regardless of what you experience. If you have a teacher, you can ask them about your practice and can give you any relevant instruction.

Prematurely believing yourself to know the entire map and the pitfalls and deviations without having met a teacher can be a naive and possiblly self obstructing approach.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Void » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:20 am

Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:57 am
Not if you understand the infinite diversity of possible Nyams.
Could you please point me to a dzogchen book or text, which discusses this "infinite diversity of possible Nyams" you are talking about?
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:57 am
Its impossible for anyone to know what experience someone else online has had so I won't agree or disagree with you but I wouldn't get so caught up in these speculations. Visionary experiences do *not* imply that you are effectively practicing thogal. Like I said in a previous post, there are countless factors at play behind Nyams. I listed some of them. If you have confidently found the natural state then you will know you have to train in 'sustaining the continuity' of that recognition regardless of what you experience. If you have a teacher, you can ask them about your practice and can give you any relevant instruction.

Prematurely believing yourself to know the entire map and the pitfalls and deviations without having met a teacher can be a naive and possiblly self obstructing approach.
I would even go much further: As long as someone is not able to repeatedly imprint his/her hands into solid rock under lab conditions under the surveillance of scientists and medical doctors, who then all agree that what they witness is actually real, there is no way be sure to have made any significant progress in dzogchen practice and that therefore one has actually practiced correctly.
Last edited by Void on Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Norwegian » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:27 am

ZOOM,

If you don't have a qualified teacher of Dzogchen, there is no Dzogchen to be practiced.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Void » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:41 am

Norwegian wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:27 am
ZOOM,

If you don't have a qualified teacher of Dzogchen, there is no Dzogchen to be practiced.
I accept this claim of yours due to the lack of any founded rationale as an expression of your personal belief system.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:12 am

ZOOM wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:20 am
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:57 am
Not if you understand the infinite diversity of possible Nyams.
Could you please point me to a dzogchen book or text, which discusses this "infinite diversity of possible Nyams" you are talking about?

I mentioned it multiple times already! Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Escence. See Wallace translation of Shamatha section for details on the infinite variety of nyams.
ZOOM wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:20 am
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:57 am
Its impossible for anyone to know what experience someone else online has had so I won't agree or disagree with you but I wouldn't get so caught up in these speculations. Visionary experiences do *not* imply that you are effectively practicing thogal. Like I said in a previous post, there are countless factors at play behind Nyams. I listed some of them. If you have confidently found the natural state then you will know you have to train in 'sustaining the continuity' of that recognition regardless of what you experience. If you have a teacher, you can ask them about your practice and can give you any relevant instruction.

Prematurely believing yourself to know the entire map and the pitfalls and deviations without having met a teacher can be a naive and possiblly self obstructing approach.
I would even go much further: As long as someone is not able to repeatedly imprint his/her hands into solid rock under lab conditions under the surveillance of scientists and medical doctors, who then all agree that what they witness is actually real, there is no way be sure to have made any significant progress in dzogchen practice and that therefore one has actually practiced correctly.
You mean in the context of observing someone else? Or that guru or self-evaulated progress in Dzogchen is only measured by feats like you describe?
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Void » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:40 am

Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:12 am
You mean in the context of observing someone else? Or that guru or self-evaulated progress in Dzogchen is only measured by feats like you describe?
A rational measurement of progress in any system can only occur in the category of objective evidence and not in the category of subjective evidence. If there is no objective evidence which can be observed, then any claim of progress is only speculation.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Void » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:03 am

Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:12 am
You mean in the context of observing someone else? Or that guru or self-evaulated progress in Dzogchen is only measured by feats like you describe?
“When giving instructions on the mind's nature, foolish, unintelligent teachers explain the causes for disturbing experiences; yet when they occur, such teachers do not recognize them as such and mistake them for illnesses."
Dudjom Lingpa, "Stilling the Mind", page 129f.
According to Dudjom Lingpa, there are "foolish, unintelligent" teachers who misinterpret subjective experiences (including "nyams"), so it's obviously better to generally measure progress according to observable objective evidence and not according to the subjective impressions of anyone including teachers.
And objective evidence needs a certain magnitude to be observable and therefore to be counted as such.

In other words: No one including teachers can be sure to have made significant progress in dzogchen practice until they are able to demonstrate observable objective evidence in form of certain feats under objective conditions.
That's simply reality.

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Re: non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:16 am

It's a good thing there are teachers who are not foolish and unintelligent. It's also a good thing that the listed criteria when first investigating and deciding on a teacher is much broader in scope than physical demonstrations of sidhis. I'm not sure you know enough about these systems to assert that a person or a teacher doesn't know what progress they've made until they can perform extraordinary feats.

Writings on teacher student relationship might be helpful here if you're open to it.
Last edited by Vasana on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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