non-physical heat during dzogchen meditation

[Void]

In other words: Even if I had a dzogchen teacher and if that dzogchen teacher would tell me that I had made significant progress in dzogchen, I would not necessarily believe that teacher. I would of course hope that he is right with his assessment. But if one really cares about facts and reality (and otherwise one can not call oneself a dzogchen practitioner anyway), then one has to live with the uncertainty until one is able to demonstrate objective evidence under objective conditions.

[Void]

It's a good thing there are teachers who are not foolish and unintelligent. It's also a good thing that the listed criteria when first investigating and deciding on a teacher is much broader in scope than physical demonstrations of sidhis. I'm not sure you know enough about these systems to assert that a person or a teacher doesn't know what progress they've made until they can perform extraordinary feats.

Writings on teacher student relationship might be helpful here if you're open to it.

I am not judging any dzogchen teacher, any dzogchen practitioner or any teacher student relationship!
I am only judging what makes sense to me according to my goals and what doesn't.
If a teacher or if at least one of his students achieved rainbow body in any form, then the teachings of said teacher are of interest to me.
If not, then not.
That's the one factor according to which I choose my sources of information.
I don't care in which form I receive said teachings: In person, through books or through webcasts.
For example Dudjom Lingpa lead 13 of his students to the rainbow body achievement, so I surely highly treasure all of his teachings which I can obtain.

[Norwegian]

It's a good thing there are teachers who are not foolish and unintelligent. It's also a good thing that the listed criteria when first investigating and deciding on a teacher is much broader in scope than physical demonstrations of sidhis. I'm not sure you know enough about these systems to assert that a person or a teacher doesn't know what progress they've made until they can perform extraordinary feats.

Writings on teacher student relationship might be helpful here if you're open to it.

I am not judging any dzogchen teacher, any dzogchen practitioner or any teacher student relationship!
I am only judging what makes sense to me according to my goals and what doesn't.
If a teacher or if at least one of his students achieved rainbow body in any form, then the teachings of said teacher are of interest to me.
If not, then not.
That's the one factor according to which I choose my sources of information.
I don't care in which form I receive said teachings: In person, through books or through webcasts.
For example Dudjom Lingpa lead 13 of his students to the rainbow body achievement, so I surely highly treasure all of his teachings which I can obtain.

What you are doing is like trying to write a novel with a pen, on the surface of the ocean. No matter how hard you try, there's nothing to read in the end. Basically you are fooling yourself in a big way.

Everybody who ever practiced Dzogchen in a proper way and had results, had a qualified Dzogchen teacher from whom they received direct introduction, and from whom they received transmission and instruction, and then applied that in a proper manner.

You refer to me saying this as "an expression of your personal belief system", this however is not my "personal belief system", this is how it is presented in Dzogchen in the past, present, and the future.

Do you not notice how every single Dzogchen master say the same? Do you not notice the irony here? You have an interest in Dzogchen, but not really - because you only want to do it your way. So you in effect are saying you know better than everybody, including Dzogchen itself.

This is arrogance and ignorance in perfect union. For as long as you have this kind of view, for that long you'll achieve nothing, except a rebirth in the lower realms. But if you drop all of this and realize that you are being mistaken, and you adopt a humble position, and then do this in a proper way, meeting with a qualified teacher, receiving direct introduction from him or her, and applying the teachings as taught, and work with the transmission like this, then you will do well.

As of now however, you're only fooling yourself.

[Natan]

It a good deal to follow your inspiration. We are all ignorant beings. How would we know who’s a realized teacher and who isn’t? We can rely on the lineages with good repute and/or we can go with someone inspirational.

There are all kinds of experiences in meditation, some good and some bad. Some good experiences are bad for us. Some bad experiences are good for us. And vice versa. Some bliss can become a distraction. Sometimes purification can feel like taking a malaria pill. Most teachers I met won’t talk much about your experiences other than to say you’ll have some.

[PeterC]

Sooner or later you will need to rely on the expertise of a living master.

Sure, If there was a dzogchen teacher who had successfully lead at least one of his western students at least to the result of "small rainbow body", I already would have applied to become his/her student.
As this is not the case until now according to my informations, it seems to make more sense to me to simply study every authentic dzogchen literature translated into english that I am able to acquire to power my personal practice.

What does the literature you read tell you about the need for a guru and transmission as a prerequisite for practice? Or about the ability to practice without receiving the relevant empowerments?

[Void]

Do you not notice how every single Dzogchen master say the same?

I am well aware that for many dzogchen practitioners, their only source of information is their own teacher plus probably some unrestricted books of other teachers.
Because of their "tunnel vision", they simply assume that the teachings and opinions of all other dzogchen teachers agree with the teachings and opinions of their own dzogchen teacher.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
In the past 4 years I have studied approaching 100 different books, texts and retreat materials of various dzogchen teachers and lineagues.
Today, I am going to buy a further book that interests me btw.
A good friend of mine and long-term student of Namkhai Norbu since the 80's even claims that no one on the planet has studied more dzogchen material than I have.
Fact is, according to the vast amount of material I have studied, that the teachings, especially the "higher teachings", differ extremely from one teacher and lineague to the other, and not only just concerning the details.
In other words: What you believe is absolutely incorrect.
This confusing situation lead me to retreat completely to the raw and basic roots of dzogchen; today I am mostly interested into the very old, simple and rare material, which would be classified as "semde" today and which (contrary to the common opinion) in my view very well contains detailed practical information and instructions, which is imo in itself more complete than all the "special" and "splitted up" teachings of the later terma traditions of teachings, which are mostly taught and seen as superior today.

[Void]

What does the literature you read tell you about the need for a guru and transmission as a prerequisite for practice? Or about the ability to practice without receiving the relevant empowerments?

It tells me that the highest guru is your own natural state, that texts can be transmissions and that empowerments don't have a permanent effect.

[heart]

Do you not notice how every single Dzogchen master say the same?

I am well aware that for many dzogchen practitioners, their only source of information is their own teacher plus probably some unrestricted books of other teachers.
Because of their "tunnel vision", they simply assume that the teachings and opinions of all other dzogchen teachers agree with the teachings and opinions of their own dzogchen teacher.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
In the past 4 years I have studied approaching 100 different books, texts and retreat materials of various dzogchen teachers and lineagues.
Today, I am going to buy a further book that interests me btw.
A good friend of mine and long-term student of Namkhai Norbu since the 80's even claims that no one on the planet has studied more dzogchen material than I have.
Fact is, according to the vast amount of material I have studied, that the teachings, especially the "higher teachings", differ extremely from one teacher and lineague to the other, and not only just concerning the details.
In other words: What you believe is absolutely incorrect.
This confusing situation lead me to retreat completely to the raw and basic roots of dzogchen; today I am mostly interested into the very old, simple and rare material, which would be classified as "semde" today and which (contrary to the common opinion) in my view very well contains detailed practical information and instructions, which is imo in itself more complete than all the "special" and "splitted up" teachings of the later terma traditions of teachings, which are mostly taught and seen as superior today.

Can you read Tibetan?

/magnus

[PeterC]

What does the literature you read tell you about the need for a guru and transmission as a prerequisite for practice? Or about the ability to practice without receiving the relevant empowerments?

It tells me that the highest guru is your own natural state, that texts can be transmissions and that empowerments don't have a permanent effect.

Now you’re just trolling

[Natan]

Do you not notice how every single Dzogchen master say the same?

I am well aware that for many dzogchen practitioners, their only source of information is their own teacher plus probably some unrestricted books of other teachers.
Because of their "tunnel vision", they simply assume that the teachings and opinions of all other dzogchen teachers agree with the teachings and opinions of their own dzogchen teacher.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
In the past 4 years I have studied approaching 100 different books, texts and retreat materials of various dzogchen teachers and lineagues.
Today, I am going to buy a further book that interests me btw.
A good friend of mine and long-term student of Namkhai Norbu since the 80's even claims that no one on the planet has studied more dzogchen material than I have.
Fact is, according to the vast amount of material I have studied, that the teachings, especially the "higher teachings", differ extremely from one teacher and lineague to the other, and not only just concerning the details.
In other words: What you believe is absolutely incorrect.
This confusing situation lead me to retreat completely to the raw and basic roots of dzogchen; today I am mostly interested into the very old, simple and rare material, which would be classified as "semde" today and which (contrary to the common opinion) in my view very well contains detailed practical information and instructions, which is imo in itself more complete than all the "special" and "splitted up" teachings of the later terma traditions of teachings, which are mostly taught and seen as superior today.

You’re still in the mode of the honey bee. Once you get the point of serious practice you’ll have to go with what some lama teaches. Often this can mean you won’t get to be a purist and would have to do things their way.

[Natan]

What does the literature you read tell you about the need for a guru and transmission as a prerequisite for practice? Or about the ability to practice without receiving the relevant empowerments?

It tells me that the highest guru is your own natural state, that texts can be transmissions and that empowerments don't have a permanent effect.

No way bud. No lineage, no go. Period.

[Marc]

Hi Zoom,

Don’t you think that there is something quite contracdictory in asking questions on a forum to people you don’t know anything about and who haven’t provided you with any proof of their realization, while at the same time denying the utility (necessity?) of a teacher who has at least gathered the outer appearance of a proper teacher (ligneage, studies, retreats, behaviour & charactor etc...) ?

Your friend, and yourself, claim that you are extremely, may be even uniquely, learned in Dzogchen... May be... May be... 
But:  
If you are so learned, why would you come here to ask questions, again, to people you don’t know and who, as far as you can say, have not achieved rainbow body and cannot imprint their hands at will in stones ? (As this is the standard you’ve set)
If you are so learned, why would you confuse “calm abiding” with Dzogchen practice ?  

I must confess that I am a little perplexed...  

Wishing you the best,  
Marc

[bryandavis]

Dear Zoom,

To go back to your opening post:

"The first time, I felt the heat arise only in my arms, but the second time, the heat was appearing inside my whole body. The sensation of heat was pretty strong and clear, but disappeared immedeately when I moved my body a little bit. Obviously the sensation of heat was not a physical heat."

You said you felt heat. Feeling implies a physical characteristic in the way you are using the word. If the heat arose in your arms and then appeared inside your body, then there was a sensation, a container of a sensation, and and "I" feeling that, no? How is that not physical?

In the hundreds of dzogchen books you have read, have you come across any teaching that states the path of tögal can be practiced with out receiving that empowerment and orally transmitted instructions for that practice?

Maybe you have, since you are one of the most well studied dzogchen adepts on the planet, according to one source, your friend.

Do you have a youtube channel? You should befriend shaktipatt seer and this guy name koi, they have really good channels that fit your disposition.

[krodha]

ZOOM,

If you don't have a qualified teacher of Dzogchen, there is no Dzogchen to be practiced.

This guy used to post on the taobums forums as well. Obsessed with men ngag practices and thinks teachers have no purpose.

[Vasana]

I would like to think it possible for these kind of threads occur and people remain civil and you know....nice to each other

It's a shame when hostile reactions drive people away from here. No one ends up having gained anything.

Can we try?

• 'Pointing out faults to a short-tempered retinue
  In these degenerate times, even with the wish to benefit,
  Gives rise to negative states of mind.
  ‘To speak peacefully’ is my heart advice.
  
  Giving advice with a wish to benefit and without self-interest,
  Or lovingly pointing out someone’s hidden faults,
  We might be honest, but still it creates heartache.
  ‘To speak pleasantly’ is my heart advice.
  
  When we support our own side and refute the other,
  We might think this is the way to propagate the teachings during debate,
  But instead it will give rise to negative states of mind.
  ‘To stop talking’ is my heart advice.' - Longchenpa

[krodha]

Can we try?

Would be nice to see.

[Void]

I would like to think it possible for these kind of threads occur and people remain civil and you know....nice to each other

It's a shame when hostile reactions drive people away from here. No one ends up having gained anything.

Can we try?

Crazywisdom, I am happy if expressing my opinion might have been a little bit of an inspiration for you, at least that's how I understood your post (sorry, if I misunderstood it).

Vasana, I thank you very much for your decent behavior and that you were constructive and friendly even if my personal opinions opposed yours.
Thank you very much for your intention to help me with my development.
But why are you asking certain people to behave contrary to their true character? I personally am happy if people show their true face and real level of personal development. This gave me blatantly the most likely answer to the question why (besides one american guy from California during WWII) no western students have achieved realization through dzogchen yet:

Even the very best teachers, teachings, direkt introductions and empowernments can't transform sparrows into garudas,
and some garudas need no more than one small beam of sunlight to hatch.

It all boils down to the karmically fixed level of personal capacity.

So at least my visit here was good for me to gain one significant realization after all.

So long...

[Aryjna]

I would like to think it possible for these kind of threads occur and people remain civil and you know....nice to each other

It's a shame when hostile reactions drive people away from here. No one ends up having gained anything.

Can we try?

Crazywisdom, I am happy if expressing my opinion might have been a little bit of an inspiration for you, at least that's how I understood your post (sorry, if I misunderstood it).

Vasana, I thank you very much for your decent behavior and that you were constructive and friendly even if my personal opinions opposed yours.
Thank you very much for your intention to help me with my development.
But why are you asking certain people to behave contrary to their true character? I personally am happy if people show their true face and real level of personal development. This gave me blatantly the most likely answer to the question why (besides one american guy from California during WWII) no western students have achieved realization through dzogchen yet:

Even the very best teachers, teachings, direkt introductions, empowernments etc. can't transform sparrows into garudas,
and some garudas need no more than one small beam of sunlight to hatch.

It all boils down to the karmically fixed level of personal capacity.

So at least my visit here was good for me to gain one significant realization after all.

So long...

[Vasana]

If my intention or opinion is still worth anything, I think anyone is likely to learn more than they find disagreement with in here in the long run. I imagine this is why many people stay so at least bear that in mind before turning away for good.

[Void]

Thank you for the advice, I surely will return from time to time to read the news.