Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Locked
Widur
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:13 am

Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Widur » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:24 am

Long story short: while travelling in Nepal, a person who said he was a tummo-yogi pointed out the nature of my mind. He did this in an ordinary manner, while we was conversing in the dwelling he occupied some miles from the monastery, but the flash of recognition this produced was something like having an extraordinarily shock. There it was, barred from fabrications. And there it had been, all the time, nothing extraordinary at all. It was like living in a tent and then someone ripped the fabric away and revealed the vastness of it all. The knowledge held for some long moments, but then the discursive mind slowly pulled the tent back in place. Now, by letting the mind rest in itself, and letting the awareness turn upon itself so to speak, the knowledge of the nature of mind returns, but then it eventually slips away again. My practice now focuses of trying to recreating and sustaining the knowledge.

Now, the problem or what shall we call it, about this whole affair, is that I am not and never has been an adherent of buddhism. I have practiced yoga (hatha) and meditation (dharana) for a long time, but not following or being a member of any established religious traditions or schools, even though I have received training in yoga and meditation from adherents of such. Having had these glimpses of knowledge, I must confess that I find buddhism no more sound than I found it before. I am familiar with the hindu tantra, and I believe I can see the reason behind the ritualism and complex practices in the tibetan schools (to accelerate the way to enlightenment by transforming mundane experience and passion), but I'm afraid I find the buddhist underpinnings not very convincing at all. I have ordered and read some books about dzogchen, and while much of it makes very much sense, the parts occupying themselves with buddhist philosophy and assumptions do not.

But this leaves me in a bit of a conundrum, as it seems that the tradition involved with this knowledge (dzogchen) is to be found within the buddhist superstructure, i.e tibetan buddhism. I realize I should get a relationship with a master to receive a firmer basis in recognition and sustaining, but is this possible when I am not really a practicing buddhist? The only dharma center in my country is I believe a Kagyu one, but they have lamas visiting giving courses of the topic of dzogchen from time to time, so I have thought about that. I will also travel back to Nepal next spring, and I will try to get in touch with the person who set the whole pendulum swinging so to speak.

Any thoughts, feedback and reflections are welcomed.

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Vasana » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:04 pm

The nature of mind is beyond religion or culture yet to borrow a line from a Gnostic text ;

'Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. ..'


Then there are the '4 reliances' . The 1st of these equally applies to to the notion of culture and relativist notions of religion.

The four reliances (Skt. catuḥpratisaraṇa; Tib. རྟོན་པ་བཞི་, tönpa shyi, Wyl. rton pa bzhi) —

  • Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality (gang zag la mi rton/ chos la rton);
    Rely on the meaning, not just on the words (tshig la mi rton/ don la rton);
    Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one (drang don la mi rton/ nges don la rton);
    Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgemental mind (rnam shes la mi rton/ ye shes la rton).


http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Four_reliances

If you come to confidence in recognizing the nature of mind and stabilising that recogniton then other tennants distinct to Buddhism will make sense if you understand their pedagogical and soteriolgical purpose.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Vasana » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:24 pm

Then there is the notion of skillfill means in communicating provisional and ultimate meaning which Buddhism works to at great length. What other religion can you think of that says from the very get-go that the person embarking on the path, the entire path and the fruition are not ultimately existent?

Sentient beings are empty of sentient beings and the knowledge of a Buddha is empty of the knowledge of a Buddha yet relative appearances still function according to cause and effect.

If you cannot accept Buddhism but can accept the nature of mind and emptiness then you should investigate thing's like dependent origination and so on.

Tenets like karma and rebirth can be hard to accept and it's completely fine if you are on the fence about these things for a while but it's a good idea to ground yourself in the fundamentals before coming to any conclusion.

'Both formerly and now it is suffering and the cessation of suffering that I describe'
- Buddha
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Russell
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:13 pm

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Russell » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:38 pm

Maybe this kind of approach will suit you..



http://www.simplybeing.co.uk/

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27989
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:51 pm

There is no such thing as Dzogchen without Buddhism.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17338
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:51 pm
There is no such thing as Dzogchen without Buddhism.
You are going to have to substantiate this, as I have seen you argue the complete opposite in the past and wish to know what the new justification is. :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:51 pm
There is no such thing as Dzogchen without Buddhism.
How can the OP verify if the experience is Dzogchen?

If not, then the secondary issue about Buddhism becomes less relevant.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27989
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:32 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:51 pm
There is no such thing as Dzogchen without Buddhism.
You are going to have to substantiate this, as I have seen you argue the complete opposite in the past and wish to know what the new justification is. :smile:
I have never argued there is Dzogchen without Buddhism. I have argued that one can directly enter Dzogchen teachings directly without first formally declaring oneself a Buddhist. But once one enters Dzogchen teachings, one is defacto a Buddhist since all the assumptions about the basis, path, and result are Buddhist.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Widur
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:13 am

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Widur » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:34 pm

Vasana wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:24 pm
Then there is the notion of skillfill means in communicating provisional and ultimate meaning which Buddhism works to at great length. What other religion can you think of that says from the very get-go that the person embarking on the path, the entire path and the fruition are not ultimately existent?

Sentient beings are empty of sentient beings and the knowledge of a Buddha is empty of the knowledge of a Buddha yet relative appearances still function according to cause and effect.

If you cannot accept Buddhism but can accept the nature of mind and emptiness then you should investigate thing's like dependent origination and so on.

Tenets like karma and rebirth can be hard to accept and it's completely fine if you are on the fence about these things for a while but it's a good idea to ground yourself in the fundamentals before coming to any conclusion.

'Both formerly and now it is suffering and the cessation of suffering that I describe'
- Buddha
Thanks for the fine answer. I think my core dissonance vis a vis buddhism as I understand it is this: accepting the nature of mind and emptiness, it seems that everything conditioned is perpetually justified just as it is. Everything, from the horrors, to the wonders, from the sorrows to the ecstasies, from the coarse to the fine grained, seems to be precisely where they are meant to be. They cannot be any other way.

This seems to be to be discordant with the buddhist view of suffering etc.

On an ontological level I have no real problem with karma and rebirth. Accepting that there is no isolate permanent unchanging self, just as there are no isolate permanent unchanging phenomenas, as well as accepting that everything conditioned is birthed, it grows, it matures and then it dies, it follows that if the conditions that birthed it are not exhausted by the time of its death, then it will give rise to a new birth, and so on. The buddhist view on this chain always seemed more realistic than the hindu notion of transmigrating eternal souls, if somehow less romantic.

I know I must study buddhism more thourougly though, as my knowledge consists of cobbled together bits and pieces from various books, and conversations with buddhists from far different schools and traditions (ranging from theravada, modern vipassana movement, zen, «secular» buddhism, tibetan buddhism etc.) But on a stripped down basis, the problems I have seem to be centering on what I perceive to be a grand denigration of samsaric existence. I accept that this view may be based on a limited or flawed perception of buddhism, so I now try to learn about the different schools without mingling it all together, so to speak.
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:51 pm
There is no such thing as Dzogchen without Buddhism.
How can the OP verify if the experience is Dzogchen?

If not, then the secondary issue about Buddhism becomes less relevant.
I am also interested in thoughts on this, as my understanding of it outside the direct recognition rests on the fact that it was the context it was delivered in, as well as me retroactively enlightening it by deciphering it in a dzogchen context, as this is the context that seems to fit. Are there any ways to verify the recognition more thourougly? A few few times I even suspect it was some mind trick pulled on me by some trickster yogin, putting this nondual mirage at the center of my experience and letting my discursive mind chase it ad aeternum. This suspicion is gone the moment the knowledge arises though, then there is no doubt.

I have experience in deep meditative absorptions from practice of dharana (concentration), as well as experience in yoga nidra where the mind stays aware during dreaming and deep dreamless sleep, resting eventually in a completely quiet, bottomless and blank state where the discursive mind is seemingly totally erased. I find this hard to communicate precisely in language, but the best way to phrase the recognition that was pointed out for me, is that if as the blank and quiet bottomless state underlying the rest of my experience was suddenly revealed not be bottomless, but rather to be a thin translucent membrane that up until the moment of recognition had in reality obscured the light that always shone limitless through.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27989
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:58 pm

Widur wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:34 pm
Are there any ways to verify the recognition more thourougly?
You need to study with a realized Dzogchen or Mahāmudra teacher. Otherwise, you will always be in doubt.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17338
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:02 pm

And you need to stop talking about your experiences as all you are doing to reinforcing a memory, rather than cultivating a living experience.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Vasana » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:44 pm

Widur wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:34 pm
Thanks for the fine answer. I think my core dissonance vis a vis buddhism as I understand it is this: accepting the nature of mind and emptiness, it seems that everything conditioned is perpetually justified just as it is. Everything, from the horrors, to the wonders, from the sorrows to the ecstasies, from the coarse to the fine grained, seems to be precisely where they are meant to be. They cannot be any other way.

This seems to be to be discordant with the buddhist view of suffering etc.
You need to learn about the relationship between recognizing or not recognizing mind's nature and the subjective experience of suffering on a momentary basis. This may change your inclination towards thinking that all worldly experiences and all horrors and joys are inherently justified and cannot be any other way. By understanding the implications and experiencing them first-hand we can come to understand why it's possible for everyone else too

There is more to add on that but it's better learnt experientially from a teacher or second best as intellectually from texts so you can understand the 'mechanics' of wisdom and ignorance.
I know I must study buddhism more thourougly though, as my knowledge consists of cobbled together bits and pieces from various books, and conversations with buddhists from far different schools and traditions (ranging from theravada, modern vipassana movement, zen, «secular» buddhism, tibetan buddhism etc.) But on a stripped down basis, the problems I have seem to be centering on what I perceive to be a grand denigration of samsaric existence. I accept that this view may be based on a limited or flawed perception of buddhism, so I now try to learn about the different schools without mingling it all together, so to speak.
Yep - focusing on studying is a good idea and it's refreshing to see someone admit that their first assumptions about what Buddhism is really saying might be based on a limited perception. A lot of people base their opinions on limited exposure to the subject matter. It may take a while for your views to be challenged but it's good to at least seek that which will do so and then take things from there.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:55 pm

Nice story. I wouldn't be in too much of a rush to become a "Buddhist".
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

User avatar
anjali
Global Moderator
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:33 pm

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by anjali » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:14 pm

Widur wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:24 am
Long story short: while travelling in Nepal, a person who said he was a tummo-yogi pointed out the nature of my mind. ...
Any thoughts, feedback and reflections are welcomed.
An auspicious beginning. Get yourself a copy of, As It Is, Vol 2, and see how well it aligns with your experience. If you have had a true pointing out, much of that book will be naturally understandable. And as others have said, you really should look for a Dzogchen master to study with.
Image

Dharma Wheel Terms of Service and Reporting Procedures.
Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness. –-Seneca

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8118
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:40 pm

Widur wrote:
Thanks for the fine answer. I think my core dissonance vis a vis buddhism as I understand it is this: accepting the nature of mind and emptiness, it seems that everything conditioned is perpetually justified just as it is. Everything, from the horrors, to the wonders, from the sorrows to the ecstasies, from the coarse to the fine grained, seems to be precisely where they are meant to be. They cannot be any other way.

This seems to be to be discordant with the buddhist view of suffering etc.
There's no contradiction here, this dissonance could be resolved by studying with a teacher. Even just basic intellectual knowledge of the different Buddhist vehicles from a Dzogchen point of view would help here.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Snowbear
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:41 am

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Snowbear » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:32 pm
I have argued that one can directly enter Dzogchen teachings directly without first formally declaring oneself a Buddhist.
Who said this?

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:18 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:32 pm
I have argued that one can directly enter Dzogchen teachings directly without first formally declaring oneself a Buddhist.
Who said this?
He did. lol :
But I'm sure he has a good basis for saying it, if that's what you are seeking.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Snowbear
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:41 am

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Snowbear » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:20 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:18 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:32 pm
I have argued that one can directly enter Dzogchen teachings directly without first formally declaring oneself a Buddhist.
Who said this?
He did. lol :
But I'm sure he has a good basis for saying it, if that's what you are seeking.
Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:30 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:20 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:18 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:02 pm


Who said this?
He did. lol :
But I'm sure he has a good basis for saying it, if that's what you are seeking.
Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.
If you attend a Dzogchen retreat with ChNN (Chogyal Namkhai Norbu) and receive DI, are you saying that before it can have effect you must first have learned about Buddhism, decided to follow that path, or taken Refuge....?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Snowbear
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:41 am

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Snowbear » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:30 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:20 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:18 pm


He did. lol :
But I'm sure he has a good basis for saying it, if that's what you are seeking.
Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.
If you attend a retreat with ChNN and receive DI, are you saying that before it can have effect you must first have learned about Buddhism, or taken Refuge....?
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?

Locked

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Leif, Mantrik and 34 guests