Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:41 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:32 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:16 am
My teacher said in Europe there are teachers who may give Dzogchen teachings without any Buddhist prerequisites, but in our lineage (Nyingma) "where the breath of Dakinis is still warm", we believe in practicing the preliminaries, i.e. Ngondro, first. That's what I follow. He also said any intellectual confusion will be resolved through practice.

Sounds to me like some of Wibur's issues with Buddhadharma are a result of not entirely understanding dharma. Many of us have been there, too. The solution is not in silencing or ignoring our minds' confusion, but continuing to delve into it. I've personally found the more I investigated, the more Buddhist teaching rang true. The fact that the result has such profound veracity kind of validates the path, I gather?
The issue is not prelims. .
I'm not saying it's prelims specifically, but as you mentioned the Buddhist teachings are somewhat inseparable from Dzogchen.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by krodha » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:47 am

Widur wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:24 am
..but I'm afraid I find the buddhist underpinnings not very convincing at all. I have ordered and read some books about dzogchen, and while much of it makes very much sense, the parts occupying themselves with buddhist philosophy and assumptions do not.
What is unconvincing or does not make sense, for example?

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:17 am

I did ngondro. It had real benefits. But did not prepare me in any way for D.I.

Not all 'Buddhism' is Buddhadharma.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:19 am

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:30 pm

If you attend a retreat with ChNN and receive DI, are you saying that before it can have effect you must first have learned about Buddhism, or taken Refuge....?
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?
By turning up. The effect that DI transmission may have will vary, of course, but receiving it has no prerequisites that I know of other than the master being willing to give it and the disciple being willing to receive it at the same time.
This.
What happens after DI might be a different story of course.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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heart
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by heart » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:06 am

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?
It can be done at any time. For example in the Vajradhatu centers Trungpa gave direct introduction to all before starting the Ngöndro. Mingyur Rinpoche do the same in his "Path of liberation". These are both a very organized examples from the Kagyu tradition.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Widur » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:25 am

Thank you all, for giving feedback and answers. It seems that the most important task now is to find direct and personal guidance from a realised master. It is of less importance whether I at this moment define myself as an adherent to buddhism or not. I will continue to study it with an open mind, withholding any definite conclusion from sealing me off one way or another, and instead try to seek personal guidance ASAP. Searching the web, I see there are several dzogchen-groups arranging retreats and teachings this summer in Europe, so I will try to find a way to attend one of these.
krodha wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:47 am
What is unconvincing or does not make sense, for example?
The whole preoccupation with painting the samsaric modes of becoming as a perpetual tragedy of endless suffering, thus stirring denigrating judgments and devaluations, cultivating aversions, cultivating volitions to cessate it all, escape it all, devalue it all, contriving it all, for one's own sake and for the benefit of all others that are likewise trapped. The picture that comes to me is how one is throwing oneself at the stranger one meet wandering under the open sky, trying to convince him he is not in fact wandering freely over the trackless ground, he is in reality confined, imprisoned, chained and suffering.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:40 pm
There's no contradiction here, this dissonance could be resolved by studying with a teacher. Even just basic intellectual knowledge of the different Buddhist vehicles from a Dzogchen point of view would help here.
Someone kindly pointed me to the following text, explaining the different vehicles viewed from a Dzogchen perspective: The Art of Nakedness: Bearing it all for the single nature of mind, a look at Buddhist salvation (written by Omega Point).

Is this a legit presentation? I admit I find it a weirdly fascinating but a very obscure read with a lot of unkown words and jargon, so the most of it probably escapes my understanding. The fascinating bit is that it does not very much the resemble the buddhism I know (granted, what I know is limited), and it is filled with what seems to be highly technical yogic know how and explanations of very advanced procedures.
anjali wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:14 pm
An auspicious beginning. Get yourself a copy of, As It Is, Vol 2, and see how well it aligns with your experience. If you have had a true pointing out, much of that book will be naturally understandable. And as others have said, you really should look for a Dzogchen master to study with.
Thank you for the recommendation, I will order it.
Vasana wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:44 pm
You need to learn about the relationship between recognizing or not recognizing mind's nature and the subjective experience of suffering on a momentary basis. This may change your inclination towards thinking that all worldly experiences and all horrors and joys are inherently justified and cannot be any other way. By understanding the implications and experiencing them first-hand we can come to understand why it's possible for everyone else too
Thank you for once more giving a very fine answer. I will need to ponder your points.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by weitsicht » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:43 am

Wildur, welcome to the forum.

Just to confirm: I also got the DI quite early and surprisedly, without knowing what that was.
And I still don't know what it's worth for calling oneself anything that ends on -ist.
I cherish the core of Buddhism but do not consider myself a Buddhist.

Seek out for your own path and leave no trace.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:51 am

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:19 am
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm


How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?
By turning up. The effect that DI transmission may have will vary, of course, but receiving it has no prerequisites that I know of other than the master being willing to give it and the disciple being willing to receive it at the same time.
This.
What happens after DI might be a different story of course.
Hi Simon. :)

Wonder if anyone has ever just 'got it' and walked, without then needing to follow the other practices to stabilise, integrate etc.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:14 am

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:17 am
I did ngondro. It had real benefits. But did not prepare me in any way for D.I.
You don't feel that Guru Yoga opened you up to the possibility that your teacher's enlightened nature is identical to your own? That you teacher can act as a catalyst for you to recognise your enlightened nature?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:39 am

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:41 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:20 pm


Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.
Me. Or does it have to be a Tibetan? A Western, classically-trained ācārya is not good enough for you?
No. I need a lineage holder.
You certainly do.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:49 am

Widur wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:24 am
Long story short: while travelling in Nepal, a person who said he was a tummo-yogi pointed out the nature of my mind. He did this in an ordinary manner, while we was conversing in the dwelling he occupied some miles from the monastery, but the flash of recognition this produced was something like having an extraordinarily shock. There it was, barred from fabrications. And there it had been, all the time, nothing extraordinary at all. It was like living in a tent and then someone ripped the fabric away and revealed the vastness of it all. The knowledge held for some long moments, but then the discursive mind slowly pulled the tent back in place. Now, by letting the mind rest in itself, and letting the awareness turn upon itself so to speak, the knowledge of the nature of mind returns, but then it eventually slips away again. My practice now focuses of trying to recreating and sustaining the knowledge.

Now, the problem or what shall we call it, about this whole affair, is that I am not and never has been an adherent of buddhism. I have practiced yoga (hatha) and meditation (dharana) for a long time, but not following or being a member of any established religious traditions or schools, even though I have received training in yoga and meditation from adherents of such. Having had these glimpses of knowledge, I must confess that I find buddhism no more sound than I found it before. I am familiar with the hindu tantra, and I believe I can see the reason behind the ritualism and complex practices in the tibetan schools (to accelerate the way to enlightenment by transforming mundane experience and passion), but I'm afraid I find the buddhist underpinnings not very convincing at all. I have ordered and read some books about dzogchen, and while much of it makes very much sense, the parts occupying themselves with buddhist philosophy and assumptions do not.

But this leaves me in a bit of a conundrum, as it seems that the tradition involved with this knowledge (dzogchen) is to be found within the buddhist superstructure, i.e tibetan buddhism. I realize I should get a relationship with a master to receive a firmer basis in recognition and sustaining, but is this possible when I am not really a practicing buddhist? The only dharma center in my country is I believe a Kagyu one, but they have lamas visiting giving courses of the topic of dzogchen from time to time, so I have thought about that. I will also travel back to Nepal next spring, and I will try to get in touch with the person who set the whole pendulum swinging so to speak.

Any thoughts, feedback and reflections are welcomed.
DJKR say you’re not a Buddhist if you believe 1: everything permanent not impermanent, 2: emotions are awesome not suffering and, 3: stuff is truly real not unreal and dreamlike.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:51 am

Widur wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:25 am
Someone kindly pointed me to the following text, explaining the different vehicles viewed from a Dzogchen perspective: The Art of Nakedness: Bearing it all for the single nature of mind, a look at Buddhist salvation (written by Omega Point).
Who is omega point? What is his (I am sure it is a "he") training and experience with dzogchen? Who were their teachers? Are they authorised to talk about and explain dzogchen? By whom? Blah...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:54 am

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:44 pm
No. I need a lineage holder.
You are not going to find one around here, although Malcolm is authorised and you treated him with complete disrespect (and a slew of teachers too). That sort of attitude will lead your path in the completely opposite direction of a lineage holder. Causes and conditions, yah know?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:56 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:43 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 pm


By turning up. The effect that DI transmission may have will vary, of course, but receiving it has no prerequisites that I know of other than the master being willing to give it and the disciple being willing to receive it at the same time.
OK. It sounds like Namkhai Norbu is unconventional. I'd like to know which conventional lineage holders of Dzogchen say that.
Tulku Orgyen used give direct introduction to non-Buddhists whenever they showed up. So did the great terton, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa.
To be honest I would think siddhas are going around bursting bubbles all day long, not necessarily smoozIng over cocktails.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:01 am

heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:06 am
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?
It can be done at any time. For example in the Vajradhatu centers Trungpa gave direct introduction to all before starting the Ngöndro. Mingyur Rinpoche do the same in his "Path of liberation". These are both a very organized examples from the Kagyu tradition.

/magnus
In Drikung co emergent Mahamudra, also, you’re introduced then start guru yoga, vajrasattva and mandala. Then you get a certificate for Mahamudra!
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:06 am

The important preliminaries are refuge, bodhichitta, contemplation of death & impermanence, vow of virtuous conduct, matbe nonconceptual samadhi, maybe the 7 branch prayer. If a Dzogchen practitioner has forgotten about these points: prob good to look them over.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by heart » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:09 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:01 am
heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:06 am
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?
It can be done at any time. For example in the Vajradhatu centers Trungpa gave direct introduction to all before starting the Ngöndro. Mingyur Rinpoche do the same in his "Path of liberation". These are both a very organized examples from the Kagyu tradition.

/magnus
In Drikung co emergent Mahamudra, also, you’re introduced then start guru yoga, vajrasattva and mandala. Then you get a certificate for Mahamudra!
So you are a certified co emergent Mahamudra practitioner also? :sage:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:13 am

heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:09 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:01 am
heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:06 am


It can be done at any time. For example in the Vajradhatu centers Trungpa gave direct introduction to all before starting the Ngöndro. Mingyur Rinpoche do the same in his "Path of liberation". These are both a very organized examples from the Kagyu tradition.

/magnus
In Drikung co emergent Mahamudra, also, you’re introduced then start guru yoga, vajrasattva and mandala. Then you get a certificate for Mahamudra!
So you are a certified co emergent Mahamudra practitioner also? :sage:

/magnus
I suppose so
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

amanitamusc
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:06 am
The important preliminaries are refuge, bodhichitta, contemplation of death & impermanence, vow of virtuous conduct, matbe nonconceptual samadhi, maybe the 7 branch prayer. If a Dzogchen practitioner has forgotten about these points: prob good to look them over.
I think i will stick with ChNNR's advice thanks.Good luck on you teaching venture.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:22 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:13 am
heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:09 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:01 am

In Drikung co emergent Mahamudra, also, you’re introduced then start guru yoga, vajrasattva and mandala. Then you get a certificate for Mahamudra!
So you are a certified co emergent Mahamudra practitioner also? :sage:

/magnus
I suppose so
Who stamped your certificate?

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