Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

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heart
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by heart » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:44 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:56 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:50 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:42 pm

As far as I know he teaches in accordance with Garab Dorje - that DI comes first, THEN other practices for the removal of doubt etc.

''We do these kinds of practices to be 100% sure of our real nature. ''

https://dzogchentoronto.wordpress.com/2 ... tatements/
I never contradicted this. I just said they’re worthy of mention, worth a look over if one has forgotten. No where does CHNN ever say things are permanent, emotions are wonderful, reality is concrete, you can forsake sentient beings.
You listed 'important preliminaries' in one post and then subsequently quoted yourself and said 'he gives this advice'.
I think we may be differing over what a 'preliminary' is. To me, there are no preliminaries necessary for DI. Others here have a very different view from their Gurus, which is fine, but you seemed to be adding ChNN to the list of those who wanted 'preliminaries' before DI, or did I misinterpret ? I often do!
I think he is talking about preliminaries after direct introduction.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:20 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:44 pm
I think he is talking about preliminaries after direct introduction.

Shouldn't they be called postliminaries then? Image
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by heart » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:16 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:20 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:44 pm
I think he is talking about preliminaries after direct introduction.

Shouldn't they be called postliminaries then? Image
Not really. There are preliminaries for accumulating merit and wisdom and various preliminaries to become acquainted with the natural state and to separate it from ordinary mind. The main practice is Trechö and Tögal but you can't really do that very well until you manage to decide one point. They are called preliminaries but actual they are support for deciding on one point.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:30 pm

Widur wrote:Someone kindly pointed me to the following text, explaining the different vehicles viewed from a Dzogchen perspective: The Art of Nakedness: Bearing it all for the single nature of mind, a look at Buddhist salvation (written by Omega Point).

Is this a legit presentation? I admit I find it a weirdly fascinating but a very obscure read with a lot of unkown words and jargon, so the most of it probably escapes my understanding. The fascinating bit is that it does not very much the resemble the buddhism I know (granted, what I know is limited), and it is filled with what seems to be highly technical yogic know how and explanations of very advanced procedures.
I glanced at it briefly, I really can't tell whether or not it's legit without further reading. Personally I would follow the suggestion of As it is, or another more well known text. Dzogchen: The Self Perfected State by Namkai Norbu is also a good choice to answer a few of the questions you;ve brought up here, and it's relatively short.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:53 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:16 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:20 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:44 pm
I think he is talking about preliminaries after direct introduction.

Shouldn't they be called postliminaries then? Image
Not really. There are preliminaries for accumulating merit and wisdom and various preliminaries to become acquainted with the natural state and to separate it from ordinary mind. The main practice is Trechö and Tögal but you can't really do that very well until you manage to decide one point. They are called preliminaries but actual they are support for deciding on one point.

/magnus

I guess we could call them 'intermediaries' or something like that.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by florin » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:03 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:16 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:20 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:44 pm
I think he is talking about preliminaries after direct introduction.

Shouldn't they be called postliminaries then? Image
Not really. There are preliminaries for accumulating merit and wisdom and various preliminaries to become acquainted with the natural state and to separate it from ordinary mind. The main practice is Trechö and Tögal but you can't really do that very well until you manage to decide one point. They are called preliminaries but actual they are support for deciding on one point.

/magnus
I agree. What we call "preliminaries" they are the principal phase because from the very beginning we work with the transmission and attempt to connect inside the same single session with the natural state. They are not a lead up type of event where we purify so that in a month or two we are to ready to hear the secret word.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:05 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:38 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:26 pm
They are usually a preliminary to main practice in a Sadhana.
When I received the lung for "Buddhahood Without Meditation" from LOTR it came with a pledge (samaya) to do 1,200,000 Vajra Guru mantra. So... It seems that preliminaries come even for reading texts, if the teacher believes that it is important.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:19 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:53 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:16 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:20 pm



Shouldn't they be called postliminaries then? Image
Not really. There are preliminaries for accumulating merit and wisdom and various preliminaries to become acquainted with the natural state and to separate it from ordinary mind. The main practice is Trechö and Tögal but you can't really do that very well until you manage to decide one point. They are called preliminaries but actual they are support for deciding on one point.

/magnus

I guess we could call them 'intermediaries' or something like that.
New cute terms always help.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:20 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:19 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:53 pm
I guess we could call them 'intermediaries' or something like that.
New cute terms always help.

Totes.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Drenpa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:27 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:30 pm
Widur wrote:Someone kindly pointed me to the following text, explaining the different vehicles viewed from a Dzogchen perspective: The Art of Nakedness: Bearing it all for the single nature of mind, a look at Buddhist salvation (written by Omega Point).

Is this a legit presentation? I admit I find it a weirdly fascinating but a very obscure read with a lot of unkown words and jargon, so the most of it probably escapes my understanding. The fascinating bit is that it does not very much the resemble the buddhism I know (granted, what I know is limited), and it is filled with what seems to be highly technical yogic know how and explanations of very advanced procedures.
I glanced at it briefly, I really can't tell whether or not it's legit without further reading. Personally I would follow the suggestion of As it is, or another more well known text. Dzogchen: The Self Perfected State by Namkai Norbu is also a good choice to answer a few of the questions you;ve brought up here, and it's relatively short.
The linked piece by "Omega Point", whomever the author is, certainly reminds me of the writings of Elias Capriles.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:37 pm

The name he/she has chosen is interesting.
The Omega Point is a concept developed by the Christian mystic and priest Teilhard de Chardin for the final evolutionary climax of the cosmos.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:43 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:20 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:44 pm
I think he is talking about preliminaries after direct introduction.

Shouldn't they be called postliminaries then? Image
No no no - 'Preluminaries' ;)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:47 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:37 pm
The name he/she has chosen is interesting.
The Omega Point is a concept developed by the Christian mystic and priest Teilhard de Chardin for the final evolutionary climax of the cosmos.
See, I knew you'd be useful for something when you came back. ;)

Assuming there is a 'final' anything is a bit dodgy in my book. Continua rule, OK.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:53 pm

It's a pretty controversial pov even within Christian mysticism... :smile:
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:54 pm

Drenpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:27 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:30 pm
Widur wrote:Someone kindly pointed me to the following text, explaining the different vehicles viewed from a Dzogchen perspective: The Art of Nakedness: Bearing it all for the single nature of mind, a look at Buddhist salvation (written by Omega Point).

Is this a legit presentation? I admit I find it a weirdly fascinating but a very obscure read with a lot of unkown words and jargon, so the most of it probably escapes my understanding. The fascinating bit is that it does not very much the resemble the buddhism I know (granted, what I know is limited), and it is filled with what seems to be highly technical yogic know how and explanations of very advanced procedures.
I glanced at it briefly, I really can't tell whether or not it's legit without further reading. Personally I would follow the suggestion of As it is, or another more well known text. Dzogchen: The Self Perfected State by Namkai Norbu is also a good choice to answer a few of the questions you;ve brought up here, and it's relatively short.
The linked piece by "Omega Point", whomever the author is, certainly reminds me of the writings of Elias Capriles.
It looks like an interesting read from what little I glanced at, I think I may peruse it myself.. I just don't know enough about it to give an opinion, the OP also mentioned multiple times being confused by terminology, etc. This is the reason I would more recommend something like Dzogchen"The Self Perfected State as a starting text. Elias is awesome, if it's by him that would make me want to at least check it out.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:56 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:53 pm
It's a pretty controversial pov even within Christian mysticism... :smile:
Evolutionary climax. We should all preclimax.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Drenpa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:00 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:54 pm
Drenpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:27 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:30 pm


I glanced at it briefly, I really can't tell whether or not it's legit without further reading. Personally I would follow the suggestion of As it is, or another more well known text. Dzogchen: The Self Perfected State by Namkai Norbu is also a good choice to answer a few of the questions you;ve brought up here, and it's relatively short.
The linked piece by "Omega Point", whomever the author is, certainly reminds me of the writings of Elias Capriles.
It looks like an interesting read from what little I glanced at, I think I may peruse it myself.. I just don't know enough about it to give an opinion, the OP also mentioned multiple times being confused by terminology, etc. This is the reason I would more recommend something like Dzogchen"The Self Perfected State as a starting text. Elias is awesome, if it's by him that would make me want to at least check it out.
When I finally got to the notes, there is attribution to Elias and the DC in general - so I don't think it's him. Elias is a mensch though, IMO. I've had the pleasure to meet and chat with him.

Not necessarily recommending the article, but it was nice to see proper attribution which you rarely see from those hell-bent on seeking student so they can "improve" on the way Dzogchen is transmitted with all of that cumbersome tradition and lineage which is so inconvenient for charlatans.

Uh huh. :crazy:

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:10 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:43 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:20 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:44 pm
I think he is talking about preliminaries after direct introduction.

Shouldn't they be called postliminaries then? Image
No no no - 'Preluminaries' ;)

You know, I actually considered that but I decided that 'postliminaries' would be more annoying.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:14 pm

Let's get back to the topic please.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:22 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:10 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:43 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:20 pm



Shouldn't they be called postliminaries then? Image
No no no - 'Preluminaries' ;)

You know, I actually considered that but I decided that 'postliminaries' would be more annoying.
Yes, I guessed it was a wind-up. :)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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