Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
I obviously like ChNN's perspective that we have DI and Guruyoga and then a raft of 'Secondary Practices' to help us along the way.
You can prepare to experience what it is like to be part of a Vajrayana ritual but how can you prepare for the experience of DI, especially if you are not someone with a Vajrayana background ?
Well, I don't think it matters if you have done nothing prior to DI, but, and I've never been taught this, for non-Buddhists I would recommend the 5 Elements practices as an informal way to relax into a state whereby a person may become more receptive, particularly if their nature is to be overly excited or lacking focus.
You can prepare to experience what it is like to be part of a Vajrayana ritual but how can you prepare for the experience of DI, especially if you are not someone with a Vajrayana background ?
Well, I don't think it matters if you have done nothing prior to DI, but, and I've never been taught this, for non-Buddhists I would recommend the 5 Elements practices as an informal way to relax into a state whereby a person may become more receptive, particularly if their nature is to be overly excited or lacking focus.
Last edited by Mantrik on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.khyung.com
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Aye.

There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
It is some of "The important preliminaries" list that i never heard RinpocheSennin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:42 pmChNNR has taught on all these points, so from my side I don't see any contradiction.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 amI think i will stick with ChNNR's advice thanks.Good luck on you teaching venture.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:06 amThe important preliminaries are refuge, bodhichitta, contemplation of death & impermanence, vow of virtuous conduct, matbe nonconceptual samadhi, maybe the 7 branch prayer. If a Dzogchen practitioner has forgotten about these points: prob good to look them over.
teach giving that title.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
There doesn't need to be some quoted title for ChNNR to teach on these points.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:44 amIt is some of "The important preliminaries" list that i never heard RinpocheSennin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:42 pmChNNR has taught on all these points, so from my side I don't see any contradiction.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 am
I think i will stick with ChNNR's advice thanks.Good luck on you teaching venture.
teach giving that title.
Edit: Had to fix my awful grammar

Whoever imagines the Buddha,
The Muni will be there in front of them.
--sutra
The Muni will be there in front of them.
--sutra
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Sentient beings unfortunately are confined and suffering due to their ignorance regarding their nature.Widur wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:25 amThe whole preoccupation with painting the samsaric modes of becoming as a perpetual tragedy of endless suffering, thus stirring denigrating judgments and devaluations, cultivating aversions, cultivating volitions to cessate it all, escape it all, devalue it all, contriving it all, for one's own sake and for the benefit of all others that are likewise trapped. The picture that comes to me is how one is throwing oneself at the stranger one meet wandering under the open sky, trying to convince him he is not in fact wandering freely over the trackless ground, he is in reality confined, imprisoned, chained and suffering.
Even those with some experience with insights into their nature are still for the most part, confined and subject to suffering.
This is accurate, Buddhism or not. Dzogchen with or without Buddhism, this is still the case.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
I don’t always agree with you, but...Sentient beings unfortunately are confined and suffering due to their ignorance regarding their nature.
Even those with some experience with insights into their nature are still for the most part, confined and subject to suffering.
This is accurate, Buddhism or not. Dzogchen with or without Buddhism, this is still the case.

I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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The way I see it, the teachings on emptiness take us step by step out of unawareness (empiricism). Maitreyayana then finally points us in the direction of what is true.
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The way I see it, the teachings on emptiness take us step by step out of unawareness (empiricism). Maitreyayana then finally points us in the direction of what is true.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
""The important preliminaries"Sennin used this title for that list i neverSennin wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:51 amThere doesn't need to be some quoted title for ChNNR to teach on these points.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:44 amIt is some of "The important preliminaries" list that i never heard Rinpoche
teach giving that title.
Edit: Had to fix my awful grammar![]()
heard Rinpoche use it for that list.
No shit,Rinpoche teaches on many subjects but he does not give
them all the title ""The important preliminaries"
If there is one thing that resounds in my head is hearing ChNN saying
in every retreat that if we only take away one thing from the retreat
that would be Ati Guru Yoga.He says that would make him happy.
All other practices are secondary.
Last edited by amanitamusc on Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
I suspect that apparent contradictions may be due the difficulty in picking out cause and consequence in a scenario which is does not follow temporal process in the usual way.
Sometimes its 'ready!-fire!-aim!'.
..possibly.
Sometimes its 'ready!-fire!-aim!'.

Back to fishin' folks... 

Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
People. I think we have solved the "preliminaries" issue. It is off-topic anyway, so back to the topic please.


"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
I know this is only part of the way back to the original topic, but I wanted to share this: a bit of digging turns up strong evidence (I'd put it at 98% confidence) that "omega point" is a pen name for one Daniel Ingram.
Make of it what you will.
Make of it what you will.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
To think the guy is an MD
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Could be, but this Omega Point character has always been a big advocate of tummo, etc., which seems uncharacteristic of Ingram. However maybe Ingram is using an alias precisely for that reason.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
He teaches them at every retreat. Probably in every session.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:44 amIt is some of "The important preliminaries" list that i never heard RinpocheSennin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:42 pmChNNR has taught on all these points, so from my side I don't see any contradiction.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 am
I think i will stick with ChNNR's advice thanks.Good luck on you teaching venture.
teach giving that title.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Perhaps you should Rinpoches latest book "The Crucial Preliminaries of the Path of Ati". It is not about Ati Guru Yoga.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:28 am
""The important preliminaries"Sennin used this title for that list i never
heard Rinpoche use it for that list.
No shit,Rinpoche teaches on many subjects but he does not give
them all the title ""The important preliminaries"
If there is one thing that resounds in my head is hearing ChNN saying
in every retreat that if we only take away one thing from the retreat
that would be Ati Guru Yoga.He says that would make him happy.
All other practices are secondary.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
I remember emailing him along time ago and he mentioned that he was into dream yoga from Dzogchen. So he has that interest
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
I think most serious practitioners as they mature are going to take a serious look at their obstacles and have to potentially rely on some kind a method for that. These are handy and accessibleheart wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:17 pmPerhaps you should Rinpoches latest book "The Crucial Preliminaries of the Path of Ati". It is not about Ati Guru Yoga.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:28 am
""The important preliminaries"Sennin used this title for that list i never
heard Rinpoche use it for that list.
No shit,Rinpoche teaches on many subjects but he does not give
them all the title ""The important preliminaries"
If there is one thing that resounds in my head is hearing ChNN saying
in every retreat that if we only take away one thing from the retreat
that would be Ati Guru Yoga.He says that would make him happy.
All other practices are secondary.
/magnus
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
-
- Posts: 1940
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
The ganapuja is indispensable for Atiyogis.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Apparently not.
Maybe if we tried 'Post-DI-minaries' ?
Seriously, though, they are germane to the topic as without them none of us would make much progress.We could drag it kicking and screaming back to the heart of the topic by perhaps defining which of the preliminaries are Buddhist. 5 Elements?
http://www.khyung.com
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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