Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

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Mantrik
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:29 pm

I obviously like ChNN's perspective that we have DI and Guruyoga and then a raft of 'Secondary Practices' to help us along the way.

You can prepare to experience what it is like to be part of a Vajrayana ritual but how can you prepare for the experience of DI, especially if you are not someone with a Vajrayana background ?

Well, I don't think it matters if you have done nothing prior to DI, but, and I've never been taught this, for non-Buddhists I would recommend the 5 Elements practices as an informal way to relax into a state whereby a person may become more receptive, particularly if their nature is to be overly excited or lacking focus.
Last edited by Mantrik on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:44 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:22 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:10 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:43 pm
No no no - 'Preluminaries' ;)

You know, I actually considered that but I decided that 'postliminaries' would be more annoying.
Yes, I guessed it was a wind-up. :)

Aye.



:focus:
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:40 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:02 pm
Well my teacher, Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche, gives DI, fourth empowerment, preliminaries, sadhana, you name it.

Actually, come to think of it, he is a big fan of preliminaries and supporting practices for the realisation of Dzogchen.
So is ChNN.
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The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
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which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:44 am

Sennin wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:42 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:06 am
The important preliminaries are refuge, bodhichitta, contemplation of death & impermanence, vow of virtuous conduct, matbe nonconceptual samadhi, maybe the 7 branch prayer. If a Dzogchen practitioner has forgotten about these points: prob good to look them over.
I think i will stick with ChNNR's advice thanks.Good luck on you teaching venture.
ChNNR has taught on all these points, so from my side I don't see any contradiction.
It is some of "The important preliminaries" list that i never heard Rinpoche
teach giving that title.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Sennin » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:51 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:44 am
Sennin wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:42 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 am


I think i will stick with ChNNR's advice thanks.Good luck on you teaching venture.
ChNNR has taught on all these points, so from my side I don't see any contradiction.
It is some of "The important preliminaries" list that i never heard Rinpoche
teach giving that title.
There doesn't need to be some quoted title for ChNNR to teach on these points.

Edit: Had to fix my awful grammar :|
Go no paradigm! ;)

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by krodha » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:38 am

Widur wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:25 am
krodha wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:47 am
What is unconvincing or does not make sense, for example?
The whole preoccupation with painting the samsaric modes of becoming as a perpetual tragedy of endless suffering, thus stirring denigrating judgments and devaluations, cultivating aversions, cultivating volitions to cessate it all, escape it all, devalue it all, contriving it all, for one's own sake and for the benefit of all others that are likewise trapped. The picture that comes to me is how one is throwing oneself at the stranger one meet wandering under the open sky, trying to convince him he is not in fact wandering freely over the trackless ground, he is in reality confined, imprisoned, chained and suffering.
Sentient beings unfortunately are confined and suffering due to their ignorance regarding their nature.

Even those with some experience with insights into their nature are still for the most part, confined and subject to suffering.

This is accurate, Buddhism or not. Dzogchen with or without Buddhism, this is still the case.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by smcj » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:43 am

Sentient beings unfortunately are confined and suffering due to their ignorance regarding their nature.

Even those with some experience with insights into their nature are still for the most part, confined and subject to suffering.

This is accurate, Buddhism or not. Dzogchen with or without Buddhism, this is still the case.
I don’t always agree with you, but...

:good:
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:28 am

Sennin wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:51 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:44 am
Sennin wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:42 pm


ChNNR has taught on all these points, so from my side I don't see any contradiction.
It is some of "The important preliminaries" list that i never heard Rinpoche
teach giving that title.
There doesn't need to be some quoted title for ChNNR to teach on these points.

Edit: Had to fix my awful grammar :|
""The important preliminaries"Sennin used this title for that list i never
heard Rinpoche use it for that list.
No shit,Rinpoche teaches on many subjects but he does not give
them all the title ""The important preliminaries"
If there is one thing that resounds in my head is hearing ChNN saying
in every retreat that if we only take away one thing from the retreat
that would be Ati Guru Yoga.He says that would make him happy.
All other practices are secondary.
Last edited by amanitamusc on Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Simon E.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:59 am

I suspect that apparent contradictions may be due the difficulty in picking out cause and consequence in a scenario which is does not follow temporal process in the usual way.

Sometimes its 'ready!-fire!-aim!'. :smile: ..possibly.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:01 am

People. I think we have solved the "preliminaries" issue. It is off-topic anyway, so back to the topic please.

:focus:
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Lingpupa » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:04 am

I know this is only part of the way back to the original topic, but I wanted to share this: a bit of digging turns up strong evidence (I'd put it at 98% confidence) that "omega point" is a pen name for one Daniel Ingram.

Make of it what you will.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:16 am

Ah..the self proclaimed Arhat.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:42 am

Lingpupa wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:04 am
I know this is only part of the way back to the original topic, but I wanted to share this: a bit of digging turns up strong evidence (I'd put it at 98% confidence) that "omega point" is a pen name for one Daniel Ingram.

Make of it what you will.
To think the guy is an MD
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by krodha » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:15 pm

Lingpupa wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:04 am
I know this is only part of the way back to the original topic, but I wanted to share this: a bit of digging turns up strong evidence (I'd put it at 98% confidence) that "omega point" is a pen name for one Daniel Ingram.

Make of it what you will.
Could be, but this Omega Point character has always been a big advocate of tummo, etc., which seems uncharacteristic of Ingram. However maybe Ingram is using an alias precisely for that reason.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Josef » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:43 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:44 am
Sennin wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:42 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 am


I think i will stick with ChNNR's advice thanks.Good luck on you teaching venture.
ChNNR has taught on all these points, so from my side I don't see any contradiction.
It is some of "The important preliminaries" list that i never heard Rinpoche
teach giving that title.
He teaches them at every retreat. Probably in every session.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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heart
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by heart » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:17 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:28 am

""The important preliminaries"Sennin used this title for that list i never
heard Rinpoche use it for that list.
No shit,Rinpoche teaches on many subjects but he does not give
them all the title ""The important preliminaries"
If there is one thing that resounds in my head is hearing ChNN saying
in every retreat that if we only take away one thing from the retreat
that would be Ati Guru Yoga.He says that would make him happy.
All other practices are secondary.
Perhaps you should Rinpoches latest book "The Crucial Preliminaries of the Path of Ati". It is not about Ati Guru Yoga.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:40 pm

krodha wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:15 pm
Lingpupa wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:04 am
I know this is only part of the way back to the original topic, but I wanted to share this: a bit of digging turns up strong evidence (I'd put it at 98% confidence) that "omega point" is a pen name for one Daniel Ingram.

Make of it what you will.
Could be, but this Omega Point character has always been a big advocate of tummo, etc., which seems uncharacteristic of Ingram. However maybe Ingram is using an alias precisely for that reason.
I remember emailing him along time ago and he mentioned that he was into dream yoga from Dzogchen. So he has that interest
Vajra Killah Killallaya

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:42 pm

heart wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:17 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:28 am

""The important preliminaries"Sennin used this title for that list i never
heard Rinpoche use it for that list.
No shit,Rinpoche teaches on many subjects but he does not give
them all the title ""The important preliminaries"
If there is one thing that resounds in my head is hearing ChNN saying
in every retreat that if we only take away one thing from the retreat
that would be Ati Guru Yoga.He says that would make him happy.
All other practices are secondary.
Perhaps you should Rinpoches latest book "The Crucial Preliminaries of the Path of Ati". It is not about Ati Guru Yoga.

/magnus
I think most serious practitioners as they mature are going to take a serious look at their obstacles and have to potentially rely on some kind a method for that. These are handy and accessible
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:03 pm

The ganapuja is indispensable for Atiyogis.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:02 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:01 am
People. I think we have solved the "preliminaries" issue. It is off-topic anyway, so back to the topic please.

:focus:
Apparently not.

Maybe if we tried 'Post-DI-minaries' ?


Seriously, though, they are germane to the topic as without them none of us would make much progress.We could drag it kicking and screaming back to the heart of the topic by perhaps defining which of the preliminaries are Buddhist. 5 Elements?
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