Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

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Mantrik
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:30 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:20 pm


Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.
If you attend a retreat with ChNN and receive DI, are you saying that before it can have effect you must first have learned about Buddhism, or taken Refuge....?
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?
By turning up. The effect that DI transmission may have will vary, of course, but receiving it has no prerequisites that I know of other than the master being willing to give it and the disciple being willing to receive it at the same time.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

Snowbear
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Snowbear » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:30 pm

If you attend a retreat with ChNN and receive DI, are you saying that before it can have effect you must first have learned about Buddhism, or taken Refuge....?
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?
By turning up. The effect that DI transmission may have will vary, of course, but receiving it has no prerequisites that I know of other than the master being willing to give it and the disciple being willing to receive it at the same time.
OK. It sounds like Namkhai Norbu is unconventional. I'd like to know which conventional lineage holders of Dzogchen say that.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:39 pm

Widur wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:24 am
Long story short: while travelling in Nepal, a person who said he was a tummo-yogi pointed out the nature of my mind. He did this in an ordinary manner, while we was conversing in the dwelling he occupied some miles from the monastery, but the flash of recognition this produced was something like having an extraordinarily shock. There it was, barred from fabrications. And there it had been, all the time, nothing extraordinary at all. It was like living in a tent and then someone ripped the fabric away and revealed the vastness of it all. The knowledge held for some long moments, but then the discursive mind slowly pulled the tent back in place. Now, by letting the mind rest in itself, and letting the awareness turn upon itself so to speak, the knowledge of the nature of mind returns, but then it eventually slips away again. My practice now focuses of trying to recreating and sustaining the knowledge.

Now, the problem or what shall we call it, about this whole affair, is that I am not and never has been an adherent of buddhism. I have practiced yoga (hatha) and meditation (dharana) for a long time, but not following or being a member of any established religious traditions or schools, even though I have received training in yoga and meditation from adherents of such. Having had these glimpses of knowledge, I must confess that I find buddhism no more sound than I found it before. I am familiar with the hindu tantra, and I believe I can see the reason behind the ritualism and complex practices in the tibetan schools (to accelerate the way to enlightenment by transforming mundane experience and passion), but I'm afraid I find the buddhist underpinnings not very convincing at all. I have ordered and read some books about dzogchen, and while much of it makes very much sense, the parts occupying themselves with buddhist philosophy and assumptions do not.

But this leaves me in a bit of a conundrum, as it seems that the tradition involved with this knowledge (dzogchen) is to be found within the buddhist superstructure, i.e tibetan buddhism. I realize I should get a relationship with a master to receive a firmer basis in recognition and sustaining, but is this possible when I am not really a practicing buddhist? The only dharma center in my country is I believe a Kagyu one, but they have lamas visiting giving courses of the topic of dzogchen from time to time, so I have thought about that. I will also travel back to Nepal next spring, and I will try to get in touch with the person who set the whole pendulum swinging so to speak.

Any thoughts, feedback and reflections are welcomed.
Reading this is delightful. Considering buddhism or not you should develop that experience as a basis for everything in life. How happy!
what are you doing

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Malcolm
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:41 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:20 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:18 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:02 pm


Who said this?
He did. lol :
But I'm sure he has a good basis for saying it, if that's what you are seeking.
Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.
Me. Or does it have to be a Tibetan? A Western, classically-trained ācārya is not good enough for you?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:43 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm


How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?
By turning up. The effect that DI transmission may have will vary, of course, but receiving it has no prerequisites that I know of other than the master being willing to give it and the disciple being willing to receive it at the same time.
OK. It sounds like Namkhai Norbu is unconventional. I'd like to know which conventional lineage holders of Dzogchen say that.
Tulku Orgyen used give direct introduction to non-Buddhists whenever they showed up. So did the great terton, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Snowbear
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Snowbear » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:41 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:20 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:18 pm


He did. lol :
But I'm sure he has a good basis for saying it, if that's what you are seeking.
Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.
Me. Or does it have to be a Tibetan? A Western, classically-trained ācārya is not good enough for you?
No. I need a lineage holder.

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Malcolm
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:44 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:30 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:20 pm


Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.
If you attend a retreat with ChNN and receive DI, are you saying that before it can have effect you must first have learned about Buddhism, or taken Refuge....?
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?
Good karma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:45 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:41 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:20 pm


Seriously? I'd like to know which Lama said this.
Me. Or does it have to be a Tibetan? A Western, classically-trained ācārya is not good enough for you?
No. I need a lineage holder.
So, Tulku Orgyen, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa are not good enough for you?

Or would you prefer someone who caters to your obvious preconceptions?

I think you fundamentally misunderstand somethings about Dzogchen teachings:

If this is practiced, all will be liberated;
there is no distinction between sharp and dull capacity.
If one practices, even a cowherd will be liberated.
If one understands the significance of the luminosity of one’s mind
through a direct perception,
the rhetoric of scholars is not necessary here;
just as when one eats sugar,
there is no need for an explanation of the taste of sugar.
Without understanding this, even a paṇḍita will be deluded.


-- Flight of the Garuda, Zhabkar
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Snowbear
Posts: 289
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Snowbear » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:44 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:30 pm

If you attend a retreat with ChNN and receive DI, are you saying that before it can have effect you must first have learned about Buddhism, or taken Refuge....?
How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?
Good karma.
No, in the DC case it's just because of the massive public events.

Snowbear
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Snowbear » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:45 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:41 pm


Me. Or does it have to be a Tibetan? A Western, classically-trained ācārya is not good enough for you?
No. I need a lineage holder.
So, Tulku Orgyen, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa are not good enough for you?

Or would you prefer someone who caters to your obvious preconceptions?
I'd like quotes.

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Malcolm
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:48 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:47 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:44 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm


How in the world can anyone receive a DI that early?
Good karma.
No, in the DC case it's just because of the massive public events.
It is good karma to attend those "massive public events."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:53 pm

Right. I just wasted a good 30 minutes of my life cleaning up the gibberish, from now on please REPORT trolling and let the staff deal with it.

Thank you.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Lukeinaz
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Lukeinaz » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:57 pm

Thanks for clearing up that rubbish.
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:58 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:55 pm
I wouldn't be in too much of a rush to become a "Buddhist".

Widur, I think you might understand why I said this a little better now. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:02 pm

Another version i know which is used in Bön Dzogchen is that the maximum number of 9 persons for DI is used.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Mantrik
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:10 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:02 pm
Another version i know which is used in Bön Dzogchen is that the maximum number of 9 persons for DI is used.
I guess that's the version of Dzogchen where you impose circumstances and limitations. lol :)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Lukeinaz » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:08 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:02 pm
Another version i know which is used in Bön Dzogchen is that the maximum number of 9 persons for DI is used.
Is this all bon or only a particular "version"?
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:16 am

My teacher said in Europe there are teachers who may give Dzogchen teachings without any Buddhist prerequisites, but in our lineage (Nyingma) "where the breath of Dakinis is still warm", we believe in practicing the preliminaries, i.e. Ngondro, first. That's what I follow. He also said any intellectual confusion will be resolved through practice.

Sounds to me like some of Wibur's issues with Buddhadharma are a result of not entirely understanding dharma. Many of us have been there, too. The solution is not in silencing or ignoring our minds' confusion, but continuing to delve into it. I've personally found the more I investigated, the more Buddhist teaching rang true. The fact that the result has such profound veracity kind of validates the path, I gather?

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Malcolm
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:32 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:16 am
My teacher said in Europe there are teachers who may give Dzogchen teachings without any Buddhist prerequisites, but in our lineage (Nyingma) "where the breath of Dakinis is still warm", we believe in practicing the preliminaries, i.e. Ngondro, first. That's what I follow. He also said any intellectual confusion will be resolved through practice.

Sounds to me like some of Wibur's issues with Buddhadharma are a result of not entirely understanding dharma. Many of us have been there, too. The solution is not in silencing or ignoring our minds' confusion, but continuing to delve into it. I've personally found the more I investigated, the more Buddhist teaching rang true. The fact that the result has such profound veracity kind of validates the path, I gather?
The issue is not prelims. .
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Virgo
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Virgo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:44 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:16 am
Wibur's
You trying to pull some kind of ihob?

Kevin..

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