Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

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florin
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by florin » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:30 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:51 am
Widur wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:25 am
Someone kindly pointed me to the following text, explaining the different vehicles viewed from a Dzogchen perspective: The Art of Nakedness: Bearing it all for the single nature of mind, a look at Buddhist salvation (written by Omega Point).
Who is omega point? What is his (I am sure it is a "he") training and experience with dzogchen? Who were their teachers? Are they authorised to talk about and explain dzogchen? By whom? Blah...
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discus ... ge_5424997
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

amanitamusc
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:41 am

florin wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:30 am
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:51 am
Widur wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:25 am
Someone kindly pointed me to the following text, explaining the different vehicles viewed from a Dzogchen perspective: The Art of Nakedness: Bearing it all for the single nature of mind, a look at Buddhist salvation (written by Omega Point).
Who is omega point? What is his (I am sure it is a "he") training and experience with dzogchen? Who were their teachers? Are they authorised to talk about and explain dzogchen? By whom? Blah...
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discus ... ge_5424997
He claims to be leading retreats and starting a local sangha.
Does anyone know his name and lineage?

Simon E.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:56 am

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:51 am
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:19 am
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 pm


By turning up. The effect that DI transmission may have will vary, of course, but receiving it has no prerequisites that I know of other than the master being willing to give it and the disciple being willing to receive it at the same time.
This.
What happens after DI might be a different story of course.
Hi Simon. :)

Wonder if anyone has ever just 'got it' and walked, without then needing to follow the other practices to stabilise, integrate etc.
Well if there are I haven't met them M. :smile:
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:59 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:14 am
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:17 am
I did ngondro. It had real benefits. But did not prepare me in any way for D.I.
You don't feel that Guru Yoga opened you up to the possibility that your teacher's enlightened nature is identical to your own? That you teacher can act as a catalyst for you to recognise your enlightened nature?
The honest answer is..I now find it hard to separate out the process before, and after, DI.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:03 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:22 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:13 am
heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:09 am


So you are a certified co emergent Mahamudra practitioner also? :sage:

/magnus
I suppose so
Who stamped your certificate?
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:04 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:06 am
The important preliminaries are refuge, bodhichitta, contemplation of death & impermanence, vow of virtuous conduct, matbe nonconceptual samadhi, maybe the 7 branch prayer. If a Dzogchen practitioner has forgotten about these points: prob good to look them over.
I think i will stick with ChNNR's advice thanks.Good luck on you teaching venture.
Well he gives this advice. The Precious Vase. The Tun book. I have no “teaching venture” by the way. No desire to endure the headaches. But I’ll add I’m just doing what the late Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche asked me to do, which is talk about preliminaries. YMMV. Also preliminaries are a pretty general concept. Rushen are also arguably preliminaries as well as anything for purification and accumulation which CHNN teaches many.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:38 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:41 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:32 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:16 am
My teacher said in Europe there are teachers who may give Dzogchen teachings without any Buddhist prerequisites, but in our lineage (Nyingma) "where the breath of Dakinis is still warm", we believe in practicing the preliminaries, i.e. Ngondro, first. That's what I follow. He also said any intellectual confusion will be resolved through practice.

Sounds to me like some of Wibur's issues with Buddhadharma are a result of not entirely understanding dharma. Many of us have been there, too. The solution is not in silencing or ignoring our minds' confusion, but continuing to delve into it. I've personally found the more I investigated, the more Buddhist teaching rang true. The fact that the result has such profound veracity kind of validates the path, I gather?
The issue is not prelims. .
I'm not saying it's prelims specifically, but as you mentioned the Buddhist teachings are somewhat inseparable from Dzogchen.
Right, it is also an independent yāna which can be practiced by itself.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:42 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:04 pm

Well he gives this advice. The Precious Vase. The Tun book.
As far as I know he teaches in accordance with Garab Dorje - that DI comes first, THEN other practices for the removal of doubt etc.

''We do these kinds of practices to be 100% sure of our real nature. ''

https://dzogchentoronto.wordpress.com/2 ... tatements/
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:50 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:42 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:04 pm

Well he gives this advice. The Precious Vase. The Tun book.
As far as I know he teaches in accordance with Garab Dorje - that DI comes first, THEN other practices for the removal of doubt etc.

''We do these kinds of practices to be 100% sure of our real nature. ''

https://dzogchentoronto.wordpress.com/2 ... tatements/
I never contradicted this. I just said they’re worthy of mention, worth a look over if one has forgotten. No where does CHNN ever say things are permanent, emotions are wonderful, reality is concrete, you can forsake sentient beings.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:56 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:50 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:42 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:04 pm

Well he gives this advice. The Precious Vase. The Tun book.
As far as I know he teaches in accordance with Garab Dorje - that DI comes first, THEN other practices for the removal of doubt etc.

''We do these kinds of practices to be 100% sure of our real nature. ''

https://dzogchentoronto.wordpress.com/2 ... tatements/
I never contradicted this. I just said they’re worthy of mention, worth a look over if one has forgotten. No where does CHNN ever say things are permanent, emotions are wonderful, reality is concrete, you can forsake sentient beings.
You listed 'important preliminaries' in one post and then subsequently quoted yourself and said 'he gives this advice'.
I think we may be differing over what a 'preliminary' is. To me, there are no preliminaries necessary for DI. Others here have a very different view from their Gurus, which is fine, but you seemed to be adding ChNN to the list of those who wanted 'preliminaries' before DI, or did I misinterpret ? I often do!
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by srivijaya » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:58 pm

Widur wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:34 pm
it seems that everything conditioned is perpetually justified just as it is. Everything, from the horrors, to the wonders, from the sorrows to the ecstasies, from the coarse to the fine grained, seems to be precisely where they are meant to be. They cannot be any other way.

This seems to be to be discordant with the buddhist view of suffering etc.
That depends how one understands suffering. Buddhist view of suffering is called a noble truth, as it is fist seen in the relinquishment of its opposite; the stress of self-grasping. If you think about when that tent was torn away, how spacious and natural that felt. Then contrast that with the discursive, self-grasping mind; therein is suffering - otherwise known as the process of becoming.

Buddhism, at its deepest level, is the essence of truth without obscuration: including religious doctrine, ontology, metaphysics, belief etc. Everything Buddha taught was to get his followers there - the raft is abandoned when the river is crossed.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:00 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:56 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:50 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:42 pm

As far as I know he teaches in accordance with Garab Dorje - that DI comes first, THEN other practices for the removal of doubt etc.

''We do these kinds of practices to be 100% sure of our real nature. ''

https://dzogchentoronto.wordpress.com/2 ... tatements/
I never contradicted this. I just said they’re worthy of mention, worth a look over if one has forgotten. No where does CHNN ever say things are permanent, emotions are wonderful, reality is concrete, you can forsake sentient beings.
You listed 'important preliminaries' in one post and then subsequently quoted yourself and said 'he gives this advice'.
I think we may be differing over what a 'preliminary' is. To me, there are no preliminaries necessary for DI. Others here have a very different view from their Gurus, which is fine, but you seemed to be adding ChNN to the list of those who wanted 'preliminaries' before DI, or did I misinterpret ? I often do!
You misinterpret. There is no “you must do.” It is funny folks think preliminaries is a bad word. I say it’s good to reflect on impermanence. Even it is important. Harrumphing and guffawing ensues. lol.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:02 pm

Well my teacher, Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche, gives DI, fourth empowerment, preliminaries, sadhana, you name it.

Actually, come to think of it, he is a big fan of preliminaries and supporting practices for the realisation of Dzogchen.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:21 pm

I think the confusion is that some think they are called preliminaries because they are preliminary to DI. But many if not most teachers give DI and the 'preliminaries' are practiced after that. They are preliminaries to a main practice such as the two stages or certain more advanced Dzogchen practices, not to DI.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:26 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:21 pm
I think the confusion is that some think they are called preliminaries because they are preliminary to DI. But many if not most teachers give DI and the 'preliminaries' are practiced after that. They are preliminaries to a main practice such as the two stages or certain more advanced Dzogchen practices, not to DI.
They are usually a preliminary to main practice in a Sadhana. If one can maintain the “state of guru yoga” throughout the day great. I think for most of us at some point reviewing the basics is a good idea from time to time. Or like if you’re going to explain buddhism to somebody new probably saying you are directly introduced to your nature and then you remain without doubt in self liberation maybe could be a little confusing. By the way I don’t dispute Dzogchen is a distinct path. I might even take this idea farther than most. It’s really rare to find somebody who’s interested in that.
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:36 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:21 pm
I think the confusion is that some think they are called preliminaries because they are preliminary to DI. But many if not most teachers give DI and the 'preliminaries' are practiced after that. They are preliminaries to a main practice such as the two stages or certain more advanced Dzogchen practices, not to DI.
Yes, that's what I was failing to describe very well. :)
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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:38 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:26 pm
They are usually a preliminary to main practice in a Sadhana.
When I received the lung for "Buddhahood Without Meditation" from LOTR it came with a pledge (samaya) to do 1,200,000 Vajra Guru mantra. So... It seems that preliminaries come even for reading texts, if the teacher believes that it is important.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Sennin » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:42 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:06 am
The important preliminaries are refuge, bodhichitta, contemplation of death & impermanence, vow of virtuous conduct, matbe nonconceptual samadhi, maybe the 7 branch prayer. If a Dzogchen practitioner has forgotten about these points: prob good to look them over.
I think i will stick with ChNNR's advice thanks.Good luck on you teaching venture.
ChNNR has taught on all these points, so from my side I don't see any contradiction.
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:51 pm

florin wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:30 am
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:51 am
Widur wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:25 am
Someone kindly pointed me to the following text, explaining the different vehicles viewed from a Dzogchen perspective: The Art of Nakedness: Bearing it all for the single nature of mind, a look at Buddhist salvation (written by Omega Point).
Who is omega point? What is his (I am sure it is a "he") training and experience with dzogchen? Who were their teachers? Are they authorised to talk about and explain dzogchen? By whom? Blah...
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discus ... ge_5424997
And I quote:

"...I will try to get back to you personally, especially to anyone who has made significant progress with the tantrayana heat-yoga/bliss-based practices I partially and somewhat cryptically divulged a while back."

This is red flag for me (personally). Plus the use of the pseudonym. Plus his seeming unwillingness to divulge where his sangha is actually located (apart from some vague geographical references). He is way too vague in order for me to trust in him to give me DI.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:56 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:36 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:21 pm
I think the confusion is that some think they are called preliminaries because they are preliminary to DI. But many if not most teachers give DI and the 'preliminaries' are practiced after that. They are preliminaries to a main practice such as the two stages or certain more advanced Dzogchen practices, not to DI.
Yes, that's what I was failing to describe very well. :)
Very well put Aryjna.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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