Clarity and Emptiness

Post Reply
⊙ Fimbul ⊙
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:23 am

Clarity and Emptiness

Post by ⊙ Fimbul ⊙ » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:32 am

I have a question about clarity as it is understood in the context of the basis. I am curious if, in addition to implying a sense of “limpidity”, there is a sense of “sharpness” or “precision” being expressed by the use of this term, as in the phrase “a clear image”? Although here the “sharpness” here would not necessarily be that of an “image” but rather something more along the lines of a penetrating immediacy or instantaneity of this clarity itself?

Secondly, in the context of “clarity” implying “limpidity”, I am curious if the clear “hollowness”, or perhaps “absence”, implied by this notion (I cant really think of any better terms here) can itself be understood as the “empty” aspect of the basis? In which case it would be the open “clearness” of clarity itself that cannot be determined or pinned down “as” anything in particular and therefore acts as the “space” that allows the appearance of the manifold diversity of “empty forms”? Almost in a similar way to the way in which a distant figure could be “identified” variously as this or that without actually changing (although here in a certain sense we are dealing with something that is the complete opposite of this example since it is on the basis of a sharp and penetrating awareness that this pervasive “indeterminacy” is being revealed rather than on the basis of the vagueness of the distant figure)?

I am really just trying to see if I have understood these aspects of the basis correctly, at least from a conceptual point of view, or if I am missing the mark here. I would really appreciate anyone who could either correct me or clarify the issue.

Thanks.

User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 702
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: Clarity and Emptiness

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:15 am

⊙ Fimbul ⊙ wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:32 am
I have a question about clarity as it is understood in the context of the basis. I am curious if, in addition to implying a sense of “limpidity”, there is a sense of “sharpness” or “precision” being expressed by the use of this term, as in the phrase “a clear image”? Although here the “sharpness” here would not necessarily be that of an “image” but rather something more along the lines of a penetrating immediacy or instantaneity of this clarity itself?

Secondly, in the context of “clarity” implying “limpidity”, I am curious if the clear “hollowness”, or perhaps “absence”, implied by this notion (I cant really think of any better terms here) can itself be understood as the “empty” aspect of the basis? In which case it would be the open “clearness” of clarity itself that cannot be determined or pinned down “as” anything in particular and therefore acts as the “space” that allows the appearance of the manifold diversity of “empty forms”? Almost in a similar way to the way in which a distant figure could be “identified” variously as this or that without actually changing (although here in a certain sense we are dealing with something that is the complete opposite of this example since it is on the basis of a sharp and penetrating awareness that this pervasive “indeterminacy” is being revealed rather than on the basis of the vagueness of the distant figure)?

I am really just trying to see if I have understood these aspects of the basis correctly, at least from a conceptual point of view, or if I am missing the mark here. I would really appreciate anyone who could either correct me or clarify the issue.

Thanks.
mm first, there is a "pervading precision and exactitude" in the aprehension of phenomena; so there are no misunderstandings. There are better explanations in texts but you will find it in other words.

second,yes it is, emptiness and clarity are inseparable, otherwise: misunderstanding. one cannot claim emptiness discovery without simltaneously have at least a clarity experience, even if afterward one "block" clarity with refusals and go back to a long-term calm state.

even if in this path analysis is not the main point, study is a good thing, however one should put into practice also!

i might be wrong also, so you should check by yourself.

oldbob
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Clarity and Emptiness

Post by oldbob » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:17 am

Good question. Good answer.

There is no end to intellectual ratiocination.

Even if you memorize all the books and have all the philosophical / psychological definitions / paradigms exactly correctly understood, it still doesn't pacify the mind.

Direct introduction, confidence. and continuation works. :buddha1:

Would you rather read cook books or eat a good meal. Happy Fourth! :cheers:

That said, bliss, clarity, emptiness, limpidity (the experience of an inner light), etc., are just different aspects of the natural mind.

In Dzogchen you don't get hung up on experience - any experience. You watch it and let it go (non dual).

Then, resting (integrating all experience) in contemplation - happy with whatever occurs or doesn't occur - all is well.

:heart:

User avatar
weitsicht
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Clarity and Emptiness

Post by weitsicht » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:25 pm

Welcome to this Forum @⊙ Fimbul ⊙
Enjoy and congrats for these fancy bubble things in your title ⊙ ⊙ ⊙
oldbob wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:17 am
Good question. Good answer.

There is no end to intellectual ratiocination.

Even if you memorize all the books and have all the philosophical / psychological definitions / paradigms exactly correctly understood, it still doesn't pacify the mind.

Direct introduction, confidence. and continuation works.

Would you rather read cook books or eat a good meal. Happy Fourth!

That said, bliss, clarity, emptiness, limpidity (the experience of an inner light), etc., are just different aspects of the natural mind.

In Dzogchen you don't get hung up on experience - any experience. You watch it and let it go (non dual).

Then, resting (integrating all experience) in contemplation - happy with whatever occurs or doesn't occur - all is well.
:good:
Be invited to cook for me. I am just envisioning a mille-feuille nibble but that's off-topic

Your experience is not my experience is not anyone else's experience.
The dzogchen approach is to see for yourself and if stuck or in doubt revert to your teacher
There is no logical understanding to it.

Now Ken McLeod says, both trying to put that into words and to share his deliberation for translation into English :
There’s something which we can’t put into words, but that is what the words sheer clarity are pointing to. There’s a clarity which arises as a knowing, it arises as experience [...], there is the experience of being aware. I chose the word sheer because rather than, let’s say, clear light because when we talk about a sheer cliff, it’s just goes ”shooo!“ It just drops straight down. And so I used the word sheer to get at the nothing to it quality.
This sheer clarity isn’t like, you know, blue lights and flashing…I mean, like mystic illumination where people have these experiences of intense light, and then you think, “Oh, that’s mahamudra”. No. Mahamudra is this natural radiance of mind, this knowing and being able to recognize it in everything we experience. And when we’re able to do that, then the usual reactivity just drops away.
http://unfetteredmind.org/ganges-mahamudra-class-2/
http://unfetteredmind.org/ganges-mahamudra-class-3/

If you have time, just listen through the series of 5 classes and see for yourself whether the teaching resonates with what you tried to put into questions.
Hope that helps a bit, good luck
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

smcj
Posts: 5728
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Clarity and Emptiness

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:07 pm

there is a "pervading precision and exactitude" in the aprehension of phenomena; so there are no misunderstandings.
I like Guenther’s term “consummate perspicacity”.
Last edited by smcj on Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Clarity and Emptiness

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:19 pm

You might want to read Longchenpa. Empty, void, absent, etc. Natural, clarity, limpidity, luminous, etc. Energy all pervasive compassion, etc. they say Essence, nature and energy. Three kayas, etc. this is a way to zero in on the natural state according to the pith instructions. You can also practice the deity yoga to assist with this zeroing in on. Or focus on the guru yoga.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”