"Instant presence"

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PSM
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"Instant presence"

Post by PSM » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:28 am

I've always found the term "instant presence" a bit odd, as it's not obvious how to parse it. It's a very common term for the nature of mind in the DC, but I've not found it explained from an etymological point of view in anything by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. How's it meant to be read? What's the exact Tibetan term it's translating?
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"Not practicing dharma is painful" - Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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florin
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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by florin » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:40 am

PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:28 am
I've always found the term "instant presence" a bit odd, as it's not obvious how to parse it. It's a very common term for the nature of mind in the DC, but I've not found it explained from an etymological point of view in anything by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. How's it meant to be read? What's the exact Tibetan term it's translating?
Instant presence=the state of guru yoga=contemplation.These three are identical.
I have seen instant presence as being a translation of ting nge 'dzin, rig pa hrigewa or just rigpa.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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PSM
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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by PSM » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:37 am

The way I parse the term is more like "instantaneous presence", ie the "presence" (another word I think is a little odd) which arises instantaneously, and is therefore not produced by a cause.
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"Not practicing dharma is painful" - Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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florin
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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by florin » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:29 am

PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:37 am
The way I parse the term is more like "instantaneous presence", ie the "presence" (another word I think is a little odd) which arises instantaneously, and is therefore not produced by a cause.
When they just use "presence" mostly they mean ordinary presence, or open empty presence.This is explained as being different from instant presence since it appears from the assembling of various causes that generate this presence, therefore being a conditioned state. This conditioned open presence together with the intelligence that understands the emptiness of self and phenomena are indispensable for successful connection with the transmission of knowledge.It is impossible to connect with the transmission of knowledge without the stability beyond subject and object and the intelligence that sees the real condition.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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PSM
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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by PSM » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:39 am

I've just found this snippet from Dzogchen Teachings, Tashigar South:

There are two types of presence. One is linked to your attention. You think, "I must not be distracted, I must stay present". You combine every action with this attention: this is ordinary presence. The other is when you discover instant presence. We say instant because it is beyond judgement and ordinary time.
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"Not practicing dharma is painful" - Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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florin
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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by florin » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:53 am

PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:39 am
I've just found this snippet from Dzogchen Teachings, Tashigar South:

There are two types of presence. One is linked to your attention. You think, "I must not be distracted, I must stay present". You combine every action with this attention: this is ordinary presence. The other is when you discover instant presence. We say instant because it is beyond judgement and ordinary time.
Yes that is it.
Unfortunately there is a further "complication" that we need to be aware of. What is classed as ordinary open presence is understood as being of two types.One where we preserve our presence so is separate from the rest of manifestations and one where the presence integrates with the rest of manifestations so the division of subject and object dissipates.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

Marc
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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by Marc » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:23 pm

I think that ChNN coining the term “instant presence” refers to a Londge teaching of Garab Dorje that defines Rigpa as “Kétchik Dangpo Shépa” ཀད་ཅིག་དང་པོ་ཤེས་པ་ “the first moment/instant of cognition”.

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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:24 pm

Marc wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:23 pm
I think that ChNN coining the term “instant presence” refers to a Londge teaching of Garab Dorje that defines Rigpa as “Kétchik Dangpo Shépa” ཀད་ཅིག་དང་པོ་ཤེས་པ་ “the first moment/instant of cognition”.
Yes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by PSM » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:24 pm
Marc wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:23 pm
I think that ChNN coining the term “instant presence” refers to a Londge teaching of Garab Dorje that defines Rigpa as “Kétchik Dangpo Shépa” ཀད་ཅིག་དང་པོ་ཤེས་པ་ “the first moment/instant of cognition”.
Yes.
And that ties in nicely with the famous paragraph #9 in The Cycle of Day and Night. Marc's comment explains nicely why ChNNR himself said that text was mainly from a Longde point of view.
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"Not practicing dharma is painful" - Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by Lukeinaz » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:51 pm

florin wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:53 am
PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:39 am
I've just found this snippet from Dzogchen Teachings, Tashigar South:

There are two types of presence. One is linked to your attention. You think, "I must not be distracted, I must stay present". You combine every action with this attention: this is ordinary presence. The other is when you discover instant presence. We say instant because it is beyond judgement and ordinary time.


Yes that is it.
Unfortunately there is a further "complication" that we need to be aware of. What is classed as ordinary open presence is understood as being of two types.One where we preserve our presence so is separate from the rest of manifestations and one where the presence integrates with the rest of manifestations so the division of subject and object dissipates.

would resting in the alaya be considered the second type?
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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florin
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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by florin » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:17 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:51 pm
florin wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:53 am
PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:39 am
I've just found this snippet from Dzogchen Teachings, Tashigar South:

There are two types of presence. One is linked to your attention. You think, "I must not be distracted, I must stay present". You combine every action with this attention: this is ordinary presence. The other is when you discover instant presence. We say instant because it is beyond judgement and ordinary time.


Yes that is it.
Unfortunately there is a further "complication" that we need to be aware of. What is classed as ordinary open presence is understood as being of two types.One where we preserve our presence so is separate from the rest of manifestations and one where the presence integrates with the rest of manifestations so the division of subject and object dissipates.

would resting in the alaya be considered the second type?
I don't know much about alaya.
It is something that doesn't feature in the dzogchen of CHNNR.
Maybe in other approaches it is important but here there isnt much if at all about alaya.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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PSM
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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by PSM » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:20 pm

It does sound like alaya vijnana vs rigpa.
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"Not practicing dharma is painful" - Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by Lukeinaz » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:55 pm

florin wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:17 pm
Lukeinaz wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:51 pm
florin wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:53 am




Yes that is it.
Unfortunately there is a further "complication" that we need to be aware of. What is classed as ordinary open presence is understood as being of two types.One where we preserve our presence so is separate from the rest of manifestations and one where the presence integrates with the rest of manifestations so the division of subject and object dissipates.

would resting in the alaya be considered the second type?
I don't know much about alaya.
It is something that doesn't feature in the dzogchen of CHNNR.
Maybe in other approaches it is important but here there isnt much if at all about alaya.
ok thanks, just trying to pin down the facsimile of rigpa i seem to spend so much time enjoying.
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by Marc » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:32 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:51 pm
florin wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:53 am
PSM wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:39 am
I've just found this snippet from Dzogchen Teachings, Tashigar South:

There are two types of presence. One is linked to your attention. You think, "I must not be distracted, I must stay present". You combine every action with this attention: this is ordinary presence. The other is when you discover instant presence. We say instant because it is beyond judgement and ordinary time.


Yes that is it.
Unfortunately there is a further "complication" that we need to be aware of. What is classed as ordinary open presence is understood as being of two types.One where we preserve our presence so is separate from the rest of manifestations and one where the presence integrates with the rest of manifestations so the division of subject and object dissipates.

would resting in the alaya be considered the second type?
I would be tempted to say yes.
A great deal of warning is given about confusing Rigpa with the Alaya.
If I remember correctly, both could be qualified as non-conceptual and non-dual, and therefore easily confused...

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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by PSM » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:51 pm

If there is a watcher, clinging to the state, a blockage for things to arise or dissolve, then it's almost certainly alaya.

Mipham's A Lamp to Dispel Darkness is a wonderful text on this.

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... ipham-lamp
When you leave your mind in a state of natural rest, without thinking any particular thought, and at the same time maintain some kind of mindfulness, you can experience a state of vacant, neutral, apathetic indifference, called “lungmaten”, (a ‘no-man’s land’), where your consciousness is dull and blank.

In this, there is not any of the clear insight of vipaśyanā, which discerns things precisely, and so the masters call it marigpa (“non-recognition, ignorance, unknowing”). Since you cannot define it and say “This is what it’s like”, or “This is it!” such a state is called lungmaten (“undecided, indeterminate”). And since you cannot say what kind of state it is you are resting in, or what your mind is thinking, it is also called tha mal tang nyom (“an ordinary state of apathetic indifference”). In fact, you are stuck in an ordinary state within the ālaya.

You need to use such a means of resting the mind, as a stepping stone, so as to give rise to the non-conceptual state of primordial wisdom. However, if there is not the self-recognition of primordial wisdom which is our rigpa, then it cannot count as the main (meditation) practice of Dzogchen. As The Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra says:


A blank state, devoid of any thought whatsoever—
That is marigpa, the cause of delusion.
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"Not practicing dharma is painful" - Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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florin
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Re: "Instant presence"

Post by florin » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:21 pm

PSM wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:51 pm
If there is a watcher, clinging to the state, a blockage for things to arise or dissolve, then it's almost certainly alaya.

Mipham's A Lamp to Dispel Darkness is a wonderful text on this.

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... ipham-lamp
When you leave your mind in a state of natural rest, without thinking any particular thought, and at the same time maintain some kind of mindfulness, you can experience a state of vacant, neutral, apathetic indifference, called “lungmaten”, (a ‘no-man’s land’), where your consciousness is dull and blank.

In this, there is not any of the clear insight of vipaśyanā, which discerns things precisely, and so the masters call it marigpa (“non-recognition, ignorance, unknowing”). Since you cannot define it and say “This is what it’s like”, or “This is it!” such a state is called lungmaten (“undecided, indeterminate”). And since you cannot say what kind of state it is you are resting in, or what your mind is thinking, it is also called tha mal tang nyom (“an ordinary state of apathetic indifference”). In fact, you are stuck in an ordinary state within the ālaya.

You need to use such a means of resting the mind, as a stepping stone, so as to give rise to the non-conceptual state of primordial wisdom. However, if there is not the self-recognition of primordial wisdom which is our rigpa, then it cannot count as the main (meditation) practice of Dzogchen. As The Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra says:


A blank state, devoid of any thought whatsoever—
That is marigpa, the cause of delusion.
If there is a watcher that wants to preserve the state in isolation or separate from maninfestations then we cannot say that we are yet in the second type of non dual presence. Because here there is no more separation between a watcher that watches something happening over there.This state also doesn't appear to be identical to the one above described by Mipham Rinpoche, which is a kind of stupor that cant even distinguish whether there is an open presence, let alone distinguishing whether the open presence is subjective and isolated or sits in integration with the manifestations beyond the subject and object dimension.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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