Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Miroku
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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Miroku » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:01 am

If there is an ordained community you can live with to do rituals with then there is no problem with ordaining. However, as was pointed out in different thread you'd still have to find a way how to provide for yourself a bit. So the question is how much do you have to work to provide for yourself or how much money do you already have.

I do think it maybe could be better to find a way how to make the practice a center of your life and minimize cost of living so you do not have to work that much maybe or you can spend more money on retreats or save it or sth.
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Aryjna
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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:03 am

I don't think there is any contradiction between DC practices and any other Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice. Also, if one is going to be a monk it makes sense they will first get to know the monastery and how things work there. It is normal to expect empowerments and teachings by lineage holders specifically on Dzogchen, in Nyingma monasteries. There will also probably be the option for multiple three year retreats in retreat centers associated with the monastery.

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:10 am

Just to expand on this point:
Personally I think it would. Having spoken to a few ex-monastics they all said to me that practice (in general) is easier and "better" in a monastic context as there are less distractions and there is a more structured practice setting.
An example from my own practice was when I was doing Ngondro practices. It took me nine years in the "real world". In retreat they finish in 90 days, while learning and doing the approach for their first Yidam practice too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:41 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:46 am
Was there ever any doubt?
You think GD could have got by with 2 Statements then?
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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:45 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:41 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:46 am
Was there ever any doubt?
You think GD could have got by with 2 Statements then?
I don't understand your point.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:48 am

Does anyone know whether in monastic life it would be easy to focus on Guruyoga and Dzogchen and treat all the Tantric practice as 'secondary'?
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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:49 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:45 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:41 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:46 am
Was there ever any doubt?
You think GD could have got by with 2 Statements then?
I don't understand your point.
In his book The Crystal and the Way of Light, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche renders them as follows:

1. DIRECT INTRODUCTION to the primordial state is transmitted straight away by the master to the disciple. The master always remains in the primordial state, and the presence of the state communicates itself to the disciple in whatever situation or activity they may share.

2. The DISCIPLE enters into non-dual contemplation and, experiencing the primordial state, NO LONGER REMAINS IN ANY DOUBT as to what it is.

3. THE DISCIPLE CONTINUES IN THE STATE of non-dual contemplation, the primordial state, bringing contemplation into every action, until that which is every individual’s true condition from the beginning (the Dharmakaya), but which remains obscured by dualistic vision, is made real, or realized. One continues right up to Total Realization.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:05 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:49 am
In his book The Crystal and the Way of Light, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche renders them as follows:

1. DIRECT INTRODUCTION to the primordial state is transmitted straight away by the master to the disciple. The master always remains in the primordial state, and the presence of the state communicates itself to the disciple in whatever situation or activity they may share.

2. The DISCIPLE enters into non-dual contemplation and, experiencing the primordial state, NO LONGER REMAINS IN ANY DOUBT as to what it is.

3. THE DISCIPLE CONTINUES IN THE STATE of non-dual contemplation, the primordial state, bringing contemplation into every action, until that which is every individual’s true condition from the beginning (the Dharmakaya), but which remains obscured by dualistic vision, is made real, or realized. One continues right up to Total Realization.
Yes, I know what the statements consist of, but I do not understand the point behind your post.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:06 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:48 am
Does anyone know whether in monastic life it would be easy to focus on Guruyoga and Dzogchen and treat all the Tantric practice as 'secondary'?
If you think that Tantric practices are one thing and Dzogchen is another then you are severely deluded. And FYI guru yoga is a tantric practice.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:03 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:05 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:49 am
In his book The Crystal and the Way of Light, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche renders them as follows:

1. DIRECT INTRODUCTION to the primordial state is transmitted straight away by the master to the disciple. The master always remains in the primordial state, and the presence of the state communicates itself to the disciple in whatever situation or activity they may share.

2. The DISCIPLE enters into non-dual contemplation and, experiencing the primordial state, NO LONGER REMAINS IN ANY DOUBT as to what it is.

3. THE DISCIPLE CONTINUES IN THE STATE of non-dual contemplation, the primordial state, bringing contemplation into every action, until that which is every individual’s true condition from the beginning (the Dharmakaya), but which remains obscured by dualistic vision, is made real, or realized. One continues right up to Total Realization.
Yes, I know what the statements consist of, but I do not understand the point behind your post.

You clearly didn't understand my references to the need for the person, having received DI to work towards having 'no more doubt' and the context of doing so in monastic or lay settings.
It was a reference to the 2nd of GD's Statements which I assumed you would understand, but clearly not able to understand in context. My last post addressed this by showing you what it means.

Your latest post is just a Greg sideswipe so deserves no response.
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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:23 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:48 am
Does anyone know whether in monastic life it would be easy to focus on Guruyoga and Dzogchen and treat all the Tantric practice as 'secondary'?
As far as I know this is the normal way to practice in general. And in any case you can apply the main practice to any practice, so there is no need to differentiate.

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:39 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:23 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:48 am
Does anyone know whether in monastic life it would be easy to focus on Guruyoga and Dzogchen and treat all the Tantric practice as 'secondary'?
As far as I know this is the normal way to practice in general. And in any case you can apply the main practice to any practice, so there is no need to differentiate.
What would a typical week's activities look like, when there is no major event taking place?
I'm wondering how many sessions are taken up with long sadhanas and work duties.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by florin » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:59 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:39 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:23 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:48 am
Does anyone know whether in monastic life it would be easy to focus on Guruyoga and Dzogchen and treat all the Tantric practice as 'secondary'?
As far as I know this is the normal way to practice in general. And in any case you can apply the main practice to any practice, so there is no need to differentiate.
What would a typical week's activities look like, when there is no major event taking place?
I'm wondering how many sessions are taken up with long sadhanas and work duties.
Here in SL the monks and nuns from what i know are expected to participate in around 3 to 4 hours of pujas, tara, chenrezik and mahakala plus dharma classes, tibetan reading, etc. Then they each have their own private practice. On top of that they have daily duties to attend in the different departments. But some i think cant always attend all of the above pujas and classes due to the nature of their daily routine.

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:47 pm

florin wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:59 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:39 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:23 pm


As far as I know this is the normal way to practice in general. And in any case you can apply the main practice to any practice, so there is no need to differentiate.
What would a typical week's activities look like, when there is no major event taking place?
I'm wondering how many sessions are taken up with long sadhanas and work duties.
Here in SL the monks and nuns from what i know are expected to participate in around 3 to 4 hours of pujas, tara, chenrezik and mahakala plus dharma classes, tibetan reading, etc. Then they each have their own private practice. On top of that they have daily duties to attend in the different departments. But some i think cant always attend all of the above pujas and classes due to the nature of their daily routine.
Thanks. :)
Yes, a friend who is a Drepung monk said young monks often had little time for personal practice.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:51 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:39 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:23 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:48 am
Does anyone know whether in monastic life it would be easy to focus on Guruyoga and Dzogchen and treat all the Tantric practice as 'secondary'?
As far as I know this is the normal way to practice in general. And in any case you can apply the main practice to any practice, so there is no need to differentiate.
What would a typical week's activities look like, when there is no major event taking place?
I'm wondering how many sessions are taken up with long sadhanas and work duties.
I dont really know. I am looking into it lately. I think it depends on the place and on what you want to do. If you choose a place that allows you to do long retreats you will be practicing most of the time.

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:01 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:51 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:39 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:23 pm


As far as I know this is the normal way to practice in general. And in any case you can apply the main practice to any practice, so there is no need to differentiate.
What would a typical week's activities look like, when there is no major event taking place?
I'm wondering how many sessions are taken up with long sadhanas and work duties.
I dont really know. I am looking into it lately. I think it depends on the place and on what you want to do. If you choose a place that allows you to do long retreats you will be practicing most of the time.
Thanks. florin answered as well and it seems full on with sadhana activity, theory etc. and work.
http://www.khyung.com

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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by heart » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:32 pm

Sadhanas don't block you from recognising the natural state, if that was so then "integration" in ordinary life would be impossible. But if you are a beginner then everything can be an obstacle and feel very difficult. Monastic normally goes in to extended retreat in order to attain the stability necessary for actually "integrate" in all different situations.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:32 pm
Sadhanas don't block you from recognising the natural state, if that was so then "integration" in ordinary life would be impossible. But if you are a beginner then everything can be an obstacle and feel very difficult. Monastic normally goes in to extended retreat in order to attain the stability necessary for actually "integrate" in all different situations.

/magnus
Yes, I can't help thinking the 'no more doubt' of the 2nd of Garab Dorje's statements isn't best attained that way. Integration after stabilisation doesn't seem to me to be improved by being a monk or having a monastic routine.
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Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:47 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:32 pm
Sadhanas don't block you from recognising the natural state, if that was so then "integration" in ordinary life would be impossible. But if you are a beginner then everything can be an obstacle and feel very difficult. Monastic normally goes in to extended retreat in order to attain the stability necessary for actually "integrate" in all different situations.

/magnus
Yes, I can't help thinking the 'no more doubt' of the 2nd of Garab Dorje's statements isn't best attained that way. Integration after stabilisation doesn't seem to me to be improved by being a monk or having a monastic routine.
I think the more you practice the easier it is to make progress in every way. You need to purify as much karma and accumulate as much merit as possible, which should help with integration and everything else. As far as I understand, just being beyond doubt does not mean you can suddenly start integrating during daily tasks just because you try to do that.

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by heart » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:12 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:46 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:32 pm
Sadhanas don't block you from recognising the natural state, if that was so then "integration" in ordinary life would be impossible. But if you are a beginner then everything can be an obstacle and feel very difficult. Monastic normally goes in to extended retreat in order to attain the stability necessary for actually "integrate" in all different situations.

/magnus
Yes, I can't help thinking the 'no more doubt' of the 2nd of Garab Dorje's statements isn't best attained that way. Integration after stabilisation doesn't seem to me to be improved by being a monk or having a monastic routine.
Nevertheless, I know a lot of monastics practicing Dzogchen. Most of them seems to be doing quite good.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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