Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Stewart
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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Stewart » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:12 am

haha wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
It is interesting to know the monastic schedule for the practice. It seems there are no much differences on house-holders’ morning and evening schedule, except for the environment. According to some life-stories, mahasiddhas did not fit in monastic setting and that’s why they used to leave.

Essential different in guru yoga is that what they emphasis from very beginning. If one knows the main point, his conduct should not be deviated from the main point.

Probably many people here know it but I would like to post the Tulku Urgen Rinpoche's remark, which may be beneficial:
(As it is vol 1 and 2)
There is one way of structuring that I feel is very practical. In the morning you begin a sadhana and practice up until the recitation. You recite as much as you feel like at that point. Immediately, without leaving the sadhana behind, go and start doing your daily work. At the end of the day, sit down again and recite the vowels and consonants, repeat the offerings, praises and the purification mantra. After that, bring the sadhana to a conclusion. In this way, your entire day is part of the sadhana.
This is how I (try to) practice, based on the personal instruction of my Guru (one of Tulkus Urgyen's sons).

I do find.it makes me more relaxed, and also keeps me more mindful during the day, as I remind myself I am in a 'session', constantly bringing the main practice to mind.

Therefore when I am in the office, out eating, on the train or bus etc. It all becomes part of the Guru Sadhana.
s.

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:39 am

Stewart wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:12 am
haha wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
It is interesting to know the monastic schedule for the practice. It seems there are no much differences on house-holders’ morning and evening schedule, except for the environment. According to some life-stories, mahasiddhas did not fit in monastic setting and that’s why they used to leave.

Essential different in guru yoga is that what they emphasis from very beginning. If one knows the main point, his conduct should not be deviated from the main point.

Probably many people here know it but I would like to post the Tulku Urgen Rinpoche's remark, which may be beneficial:
(As it is vol 1 and 2)
There is one way of structuring that I feel is very practical. In the morning you begin a sadhana and practice up until the recitation. You recite as much as you feel like at that point. Immediately, without leaving the sadhana behind, go and start doing your daily work. At the end of the day, sit down again and recite the vowels and consonants, repeat the offerings, praises and the purification mantra. After that, bring the sadhana to a conclusion. In this way, your entire day is part of the sadhana.
This is how I (try to) practice, based on the personal instruction of my Guru (one of Tulkus Urgyen's sons).

I do find.it makes me more relaxed, and also keeps me more mindful during the day, as I remind myself I am in a 'session', constantly bringing the main practice to mind.

Therefore when I am in the office, out eating, on the train or bus etc. It all becomes part of the Guru Sadhana.
This is akin to ChNN's approach where you do not dissolve the manifestation etc. at the end of a sadhana, you dedicate the merit and remain in the natural state. (p.18 of The Garuda Practice). So, although the sadhana is concluded, practice continues seamlessly. That is the perfect scenario, of course.

The final two words of the Thun refer to “continuous integration in the state of instant presence.” It is also for empowering our invocations and reversing our transmigration in samsara (rulog) by remaining in the state of contemplation. (p. 95 Teachings on Thun & Ganapuja).
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

Stewart
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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Stewart » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:09 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:39 am
Stewart wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:12 am
haha wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
It is interesting to know the monastic schedule for the practice. It seems there are no much differences on house-holders’ morning and evening schedule, except for the environment. According to some life-stories, mahasiddhas did not fit in monastic setting and that’s why they used to leave.

Essential different in guru yoga is that what they emphasis from very beginning. If one knows the main point, his conduct should not be deviated from the main point.

Probably many people here know it but I would like to post the Tulku Urgen Rinpoche's remark, which may be beneficial:
This is how I (try to) practice, based on the personal instruction of my Guru (one of Tulkus Urgyen's sons).

I do find.it makes me more relaxed, and also keeps me more mindful during the day, as I remind myself I am in a 'session', constantly bringing the main practice to mind.

Therefore when I am in the office, out eating, on the train or bus etc. It all becomes part of the Guru Sadhana.
This is akin to ChNN's approach where you do not dissolve the manifestation etc. at the end of a sadhana, you dedicate the merit and remain in the natural state. (p.18 of The Garuda Practice). So, although the sadhana is concluded, practice continues seamlessly. That is the perfect scenario, of course.

The final two words of the Thun refer to “continuous integration in the state of instant presence.” It is also for empowering our invocations and reversing our transmigration in samsara (rulog) by remaining in the state of contemplation. (p. 95 Teachings on Thun & Ganapuja).
Kind of...the way I was instructed, I begin when I wake up with Refuge, Bodhicitta verse... opening verses..then up to the vajra recitiion/Trekcho...then get on with my day, applying the VR/Trekcho throughout the day...the best that I can...then in the evening, more VR/Trekcho...then dedication verse..sleep...wake up.rinse, repeat.
s.

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:29 pm

Stewart wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:09 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:39 am
Stewart wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:12 am


This is how I (try to) practice, based on the personal instruction of my Guru (one of Tulkus Urgyen's sons).

I do find.it makes me more relaxed, and also keeps me more mindful during the day, as I remind myself I am in a 'session', constantly bringing the main practice to mind.

Therefore when I am in the office, out eating, on the train or bus etc. It all becomes part of the Guru Sadhana.
This is akin to ChNN's approach where you do not dissolve the manifestation etc. at the end of a sadhana, you dedicate the merit and remain in the natural state. (p.18 of The Garuda Practice). So, although the sadhana is concluded, practice continues seamlessly. That is the perfect scenario, of course.

The final two words of the Thun refer to “continuous integration in the state of instant presence.” It is also for empowering our invocations and reversing our transmigration in samsara (rulog) by remaining in the state of contemplation. (p. 95 Teachings on Thun & Ganapuja).
Kind of...the way I was instructed, I begin when I wake up with Refuge, Bodhicitta verse... opening verses..then up to the vajra recitiion/Trekcho...then get on with my day, applying the VR/Trekcho throughout the day...the best that I can...then in the evening, more VR/Trekcho...then dedication verse..sleep...wake up.rinse, repeat.
I recall a couple of years of 6 session yoga while I was in the Voldemort sangha which did tie the day together nicely as part of HYT. I guess that could still be part of an integrated Dzogchen approach, as again we are not stop-starting.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:30 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:39 am
This is akin to ChNN's approach where you do not dissolve the manifestation etc. at the end of a sadhana, you dedicate the merit and remain in the natural state. (p.18 of The Garuda Practice). So, although the sadhana is concluded, practice continues seamlessly. That is the perfect scenario, of course.
All Yidam practices end like this.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:30 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:39 am
This is akin to ChNN's approach where you do not dissolve the manifestation etc. at the end of a sadhana, you dedicate the merit and remain in the natural state. (p.18 of The Garuda Practice). So, although the sadhana is concluded, practice continues seamlessly. That is the perfect scenario, of course.
All Yidam practices end like this.
Not in lower Tantras they don't.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:53 pm

Consort practice will be difficult in the monasteries.
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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:11 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:53 pm
Consort practice will be difficult in the monasteries.
No it isn't. Consort practice, can be done without a physical consort.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:13 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:11 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:53 pm
Consort practice will be difficult in the monasteries.
No it isn't. Consort practice, can be done without a physical consort.
I was referring to physical consort.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:17 pm

Stewart wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:12 am
haha wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:57 am
It is interesting to know the monastic schedule for the practice. It seems there are no much differences on house-holders’ morning and evening schedule, except for the environment. According to some life-stories, mahasiddhas did not fit in monastic setting and that’s why they used to leave.

Essential different in guru yoga is that what they emphasis from very beginning. If one knows the main point, his conduct should not be deviated from the main point.

Probably many people here know it but I would like to post the Tulku Urgen Rinpoche's remark, which may be beneficial:
(As it is vol 1 and 2)
There is one way of structuring that I feel is very practical. In the morning you begin a sadhana and practice up until the recitation. You recite as much as you feel like at that point. Immediately, without leaving the sadhana behind, go and start doing your daily work. At the end of the day, sit down again and recite the vowels and consonants, repeat the offerings, praises and the purification mantra. After that, bring the sadhana to a conclusion. In this way, your entire day is part of the sadhana.
This is how I (try to) practice, based on the personal instruction of my Guru (one of Tulkus Urgyen's sons).

I do find.it makes me more relaxed, and also keeps me more mindful during the day, as I remind myself I am in a 'session', constantly bringing the main practice to mind.

Therefore when I am in the office, out eating, on the train or bus etc. It all becomes part of the Guru Sadhana.
I do this also
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:56 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:47 pm
Not in lower Tantras they don't.
Technically not true. Even lower Tantra can be practiced with a Higher Yoga Tantra view. Even Sutra practices...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:01 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:56 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:47 pm
Not in lower Tantras they don't.
Technically not true. Even lower Tantra can be practiced with a Higher Yoga Tantra view. Even Sutra practices...
Then they are not lower practices.

ChNN:
''In general, whenever you do a practice in the Anuyoga system, at
the end you do not dissolve your manifestation into a letter and then
emptiness, and so on. In Lower Tantra, for example, it is considered
crucial to do this, particularly in the system of Kriya Tantra. Lower
Tantra practitioners say if you imagine in front of you a deity who
is an enlightened being, such as Avalokiteshvara, then you invite his
wisdom, pray and make offerings, accumulate merit, prepare to receive
wisdom, and so on, at the end you somehow have to dissolve all of this
and remain in the state of emptiness. If you do not do that, according to
Kriya Tantra you accumulate some negativity because you invited an
enlightened being and that being is still there in front of you, and yet
you do not pay respect. ''
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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:05 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:01 pm
Then they are not lower practices.
Which is why I said "technically". I have seen Sutra level sadhana that describe a "lower" tantra approach but have small print saying: "Well, you could do it like this, like [insert name of realised master] did".
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:05 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:01 pm
Then they are not lower practices.
Which is why I said "technically". I have seen Sutra level sadhana that describe a "lower" tantra approach but have small print saying: "Well, you could do it like this, like [insert name of realised master] did".
Yes, some even overtly offer options. For example Fire Sword of Black Garuda offers both in-front and self-gen (for those with an HYT empowerment).
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by heart » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:55 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:40 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:05 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:01 pm
Then they are not lower practices.
Which is why I said "technically". I have seen Sutra level sadhana that describe a "lower" tantra approach but have small print saying: "Well, you could do it like this, like [insert name of realised master] did".
Yes, some even overtly offer options. For example Fire Sword of Black Garuda offers both in-front and self-gen (for those with an HYT empowerment).
Having both a front and self-visualisation is common in Mahayoga.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:52 pm

Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:10 pm
Malcolm » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:28 pm wrote:
The supreme vajrayana guru is a fully ordained monk. This is taught very clearly in tantras such as Kalacakra. Westerners are enamored of upasaka gurus, the most inferior kind, with predictable results.
[Original post]
If this is the case, would it be best for single Dzogchen practitioners to ordain as a monastic if they have the opportunity both to ordain and receive monastic training?

Does the DC have any monastic members, and has ChNN ever discussed this?

DS
A fully ordained monk have renounced samsara, so he/she won't rape you, steal you, lie to you, harm you, deceive you, etc. if he/she keeps up his vows of course. Having renounced the worldly pleasures he/she is free from defilements, and is the best vajra guru one can find.

One can't say the same of lay gurus.

J. Kyentse Chokyi Wangchuk lived in retreat most of his life and was a fully ordained monk, i think this is a good example that dzogchen and monkhood are just great. He was a ChNN's Vajra Guru.

ChNN's approach is that of "a dzogchen practitioner never escapes, but integrates everything", so in our society one lives normal life and that's a fundamental part of the practice also.

I would say practicing in normal life is an enormous challenge. X.x
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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:54 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:48 am
Does anyone know whether in monastic life it would be easy to focus on Guruyoga and Dzogchen and treat all the Tantric practice as 'secondary'?
This is exactly the way Dzogchen is presented in all the very ubiquitous Dzogchen practice manuals I’ve ever encountered. Dzogchen is Dzogchen. Norbu Rinpoche’s approach to Dzogchen practice really isn’t so different from the standard Nyingma approach. About the only differences I’ve noticed from the establishment is he doesn’t consider the so-called tantric ngondro and three roots accumulations universally indispensable prerequisites for Dzogchen practioners.

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:59 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:54 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:48 am
Does anyone know whether in monastic life it would be easy to focus on Guruyoga and Dzogchen and treat all the Tantric practice as 'secondary'?
This is exactly the way Dzogchen is presented in all the very ubiquitous Dzogchen practice manuals I’ve ever encountered. Dzogchen is Dzogchen. Norbu Rinpoche’s approach to Dzogchen practice really isn’t so different from the standard Nyingma approach. About the only differences I’ve noticed from the establishment is he doesn’t consider the so-called tantric ngondro and three roots accumulations universally indispensable prerequisites for Dzogchen practioners.
That's right. I was quite surprised when a Yungdrung Bon teacher placed Ngondro first. Not sure why but I had thought, like ChNN, they may be 'DI first' in approach. For several reasons I didn't pursue it after speaking with him.
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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:12 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:55 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:40 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:05 pm
Which is why I said "technically". I have seen Sutra level sadhana that describe a "lower" tantra approach but have small print saying: "Well, you could do it like this, like [insert name of realised master] did".
Yes, some even overtly offer options. For example Fire Sword of Black Garuda offers both in-front and self-gen (for those with an HYT empowerment).
Having both a front and self-visualisation is common in Mahayoga.

/magnus
I assume those with HYT empowerment can choose to do either?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Is Monastic Ordination the Better Option for Single Dzogchen Practitioners?

Post by heart » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:40 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:12 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:55 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:40 pm


Yes, some even overtly offer options. For example Fire Sword of Black Garuda offers both in-front and self-gen (for those with an HYT empowerment).
Having both a front and self-visualisation is common in Mahayoga.

/magnus
I assume those with HYT empowerment can choose to do either?
In some rather large practices you add the front visualisation, not exactly sure why, Lama Pecho might know. Then in some practices you only do it when you do tsog and it seems it is sometimes is a choice you have. Some of these self-front visualisations are very interesting and powerful.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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