Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

kausalya
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Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by kausalya » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:05 pm

I see potential benefit in integrating Dzogchen with my existing practices.

Assuming ChNN goes ahead with his next Worldwide Transmission -- which I've been told takes place on July 21, 2018, from 8 pm to 9 pm PT -- there's a good chance I'll be around to receive it.

For my sake:
  • Are there any texts or other resources that could be useful to me in the meantime?
  • Is there a particular "threshold practice," like trekchöd, above which DI is necessary?
Much gratitude... :twothumbsup:
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

Norwegian
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by Norwegian » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:27 pm

kausalya wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:05 pm
I see potential benefit in integrating Dzogchen with my existing practices.

Assuming ChNN goes ahead with his next Worldwide Transmission -- which I've been told takes place on July 21, 2018, from 8 pm to 9 pm PT -- there's a good chance I'll be around to receive it.

For my sake:
  • Are there any texts or other resources that could be useful to me in the meantime?
  • Is there a particular "threshold practice," like trekchöd, above which DI is necessary?
Much gratitude... :twothumbsup:
You could buy ChNN's The Crystal & The Way of Light. Most excellent book.

chimechodra
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by chimechodra » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:21 pm

You can buy the Guru Yoga book, they allow anyone who plans on receiving DI to purchase that book. Definitely recommend reading it before the WWT. Likely smartest to get the PDF version so you can get it in time.

kausalya
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:06 am

Norwegian wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:27 pm
You could buy ChNN's The Crystal & The Way of Light. Most excellent book.
chimechodra wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:21 pm
You can buy the Guru Yoga book, they allow anyone who plans on receiving DI to purchase that book.
I've had a look at both books -- they're wonderful, as far as I can tell.

Perhaps I should make another thread for this, but the process for receiving the transmission seems complicated, for a few reasons.

Is there a sensible way to break the information into chunks for memorizing? I'm not looking at making it easy, just no harder than it needs to be.

Alternatively, am I overthinking this? Could I get just as much benefit from simply doing my best as I would from preparing the recitations/visualizations/etc.?
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:35 am

kausalya wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:06 am
Norwegian wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:27 pm
You could buy ChNN's The Crystal & The Way of Light. Most excellent book.
chimechodra wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:21 pm
You can buy the Guru Yoga book, they allow anyone who plans on receiving DI to purchase that book.
I've had a look at both books -- they're wonderful, as far as I can tell.

Perhaps I should make another thread for this, but the process for receiving the transmission seems complicated, for a few reasons.

Is there a sensible way to break the information into chunks for memorizing? I'm not looking at making it easy, just no harder than it needs to be.

Alternatively, am I overthinking this? Could I get just as much benefit from simply doing my best as I would from preparing the recitations/visualizations/etc.?
I would use the GY book to prepare, and then just be present during the DI. To the degree that worrying about visualization and recitation decreases your ability to be present, dial it back and do what you can. That is of course just my experience and may be 'wrong" on some level.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

kausalya
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:19 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:35 am
I would use the GY book to prepare, and then just be present during the DI. To the degree that worrying about visualization and recitation decreases your ability to be present, dial it back and do what you can. That is of course just my experience and may be 'wrong" on some level.
Thanks. There are three outward obstacles I can think of, in this regard:
  • As a Gelug practitioner, a lot of the ritual text is just plain unfamiliar to me.
  • The Tibetan is romanized in a unique way, making pronunciation less intuitive, at least to my eyes.
  • I have impaired coordination; although I can do basic mudras (like the offering mudras) more complicated ones are... more complicated.
In case it's possible for someone to set my mind at ease (did I just make a joke? :jumping:), I will be forever grateful.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

chimechodra
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by chimechodra » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:27 am

kausalya wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:19 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:35 am
I would use the GY book to prepare, and then just be present during the DI. To the degree that worrying about visualization and recitation decreases your ability to be present, dial it back and do what you can. That is of course just my experience and may be 'wrong" on some level.
Thanks. There are three outward obstacles I can think of, in this regard:
  • As a Gelug practitioner, a lot of the ritual text is just plain unfamiliar to me.
  • The Tibetan is romanized in a unique way, making pronunciation less intuitive, at least to my eyes.
  • I have impaired coordination; although I can do basic mudras (like the offering mudras) more complicated ones are... more complicated.
In case it's possible for someone to set my mind at ease (did I just make a joke? :jumping:), I will be forever grateful.
Malcolm and others have mentioned multiple times on this forum that it's absolutely not critical you have all the visualizations and mudras and what not memorized before the WWT. The most important thing is to be present, and really try to feel Rinpoche's presence and integrate with it.

kausalya
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:36 am

chimechodra wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:27 am
Malcolm and others have mentioned multiple times on this forum that it's absolutely not critical you have all the visualizations and mudras and what not memorized before the WWT. The most important thing is to be present, and really try to feel Rinpoche's presence and integrate with it.
Thanks for this! That's all I needed to know. Apologies for neglecting the search function. :anjali:
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:00 am

kausalya wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:19 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:35 am
I would use the GY book to prepare, and then just be present during the DI. To the degree that worrying about visualization and recitation decreases your ability to be present, dial it back and do what you can. That is of course just my experience and may be 'wrong" on some level.
Thanks. There are three outward obstacles I can think of, in this regard:
  • As a Gelug practitioner, a lot of the ritual text is just plain unfamiliar to me.
  • The Tibetan is romanized in a unique way, making pronunciation less intuitive, at least to my eyes.
  • I have impaired coordination; although I can do basic mudras (like the offering mudras) more complicated ones are... more complicated.
In case it's possible for someone to set my mind at ease (did I just make a joke? :jumping:), I will be forever grateful.
You just sing along with Rinpoche really, if you have the text near or memorize it, or print it out you'll be fine. Again, I feel like niggling over details is beside the point, you just "do your best" and :work with your circumstances" as Rinpoche says, it's more important to really be present than anything else.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

kausalya
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:09 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:00 am
kausalya wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:19 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:35 am
I would use the GY book to prepare, and then just be present during the DI. To the degree that worrying about visualization and recitation decreases your ability to be present, dial it back and do what you can. That is of course just my experience and may be 'wrong" on some level.
Thanks. There are three outward obstacles I can think of, in this regard:
  • As a Gelug practitioner, a lot of the ritual text is just plain unfamiliar to me.
  • The Tibetan is romanized in a unique way, making pronunciation less intuitive, at least to my eyes.
  • I have impaired coordination; although I can do basic mudras (like the offering mudras) more complicated ones are... more complicated.
In case it's possible for someone to set my mind at ease (did I just make a joke? :jumping:), I will be forever grateful.
You just sing along with Rinpoche really, if you have the text near or memorize it, or print it out you'll be fine. Again, I feel like niggling over details is beside the point, you just "do your best" and :work with your circumstances" as Rinpoche says, it's more important to really be present than anything else.
You're right! This is one reason why I have the sense that Dzogchen might be beneficial in my case -- lessening unproductive striving, quieting discursive thoughts...
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by PeterC » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:51 am

Several gars do a session prior to WWT where they explain everything - I believe the NY location as a dial-in number for that. Worth joining if you can.

florin
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by florin » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:34 am

PeterC wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:51 am
Several gars do a session prior to WWT where they explain everything - I believe the NY location as a dial-in number for that. Worth joining if you can.
of course.
Some people in the past said " no, no no dont buy the guru yoga book because that is only intended for those with transmission". Really ?
I mean how are people suppose to prepare for transmissions ? And not to mention that as you say the various gars do preparatory session for the new people wanting to receive transmission.

On top of that there are regional contacts responsible with preparing people. This i what happened in my case as well.I contacted someone locally and asked if i could be prepared for the upcoming transmission.Inevitably when at one of those meetings you are imparted some restricted material.
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

kausalya
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:00 pm

florin wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:34 am
On top of that there are regional contacts responsible with preparing people. This i what happened in my case as well.I contacted someone locally and asked if i could be prepared for the upcoming transmission.Inevitably when at one of those meetings you are imparted some restricted material.
I guess it all comes out in the wash for someone with the sincere wish & the opportunity to pursue the proper permission.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by Aryjna » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:01 pm

I think the best idea is to email the nearest gar or ling. They can send you the practice text and maybe instructions. Also, if you get the book, you do not have to read everything, the explanations for the transmission must be around 10 pages. You can read the rest after the transmission.

kausalya
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:11 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:01 pm
Also, if you get the book, you do not have to read everything, the explanations for the transmission must be around 10 pages. You can read the rest after the transmission.
Good point! It's so obvious I never thought of it. :tongue:
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by haha » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:32 am

Actually, it is good to know how CNNR will present the teaching before you are receiving the transmission. Otherwise, if one has been preconditioned by presentation of sutras and tantras, his presentation will shake the ground. Foundation of the Path, Dzogchen Teachings, and Crystal and the Way of Light would be supportive.
If you sing the song of vajra, it would be great help. (Actually, I did many times before participating his webcast.) Many elements of your current practice also help a lot.
kausalya wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:05 pm
I see potential benefit in integrating Dzogchen with my existing practices.
No doubt.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:32 pm

Kausalya,

Also, you should know that the Dzogchen state—your own Buddha nature, your own essential knowledge—is completely unfabricated and nonconceptual. It is utterly free of fixation, tension, and unharmed by discursive thoughts. So during the transmission, know that although you’ll fabricate a visualization, this is only to usher you into the natural state, which you don’t create or contrive, but rather come to know. In other words, the actual practice doesn’t involve any visualization or deliberation. And maybe you’ll experience an obvious glimpse of this knowledge of your state during the transmission, though it’s probably more likely it’ll come about through subsequent practice. During the transmission, it’s good to do your best to do the visualization and recite along with as much understanding of the meaning as you can, but without grasping at some better, more ideal level of ability you think you should have; don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good and make you all stressed and distracted and tense. Better to relax and, as needed, rest on your faith in the lama, your true nature, and the teachings and just pay attention contentedly.

kausalya
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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by kausalya » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:39 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:32 pm
Kausalya,

Also, you should know that the Dzogchen state—your own Buddha nature, your own essential knowledge—is completely unfabricated and nonconceptual. It is utterly free of fixation, tension, and unharmed by discursive thoughts. So during the transmission, know that although you’ll fabricate a visualization, this is only to usher you into the natural state, which you don’t create or contrive, but rather come to know. In other words, the actual practice doesn’t involve any visualization or deliberation. And maybe you’ll experience an obvious glimpse of this knowledge of your state during the transmission, though it’s probably more likely it’ll come about through subsequent practice. During the transmission, it’s good to do your best to do the visualization and recite along with as much understanding of the meaning as you can, but without grasping at some better, more ideal level of ability you think you should have; don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good and make you all stressed and distracted and tense. Better to relax and, as needed, rest on your faith in the lama, your true nature, and the teachings and just pay attention contentedly.
:good:

This helps! Thanks for the time you've taken to explain it.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by Virgo » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:51 pm

haha wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:32 am
If you sing the song of vajra, it would be great help. (Actually, I did many times before participating his webcast.)
Well actually afaik it is necessary to have transmission to engage in that.

Kevin...

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Re: Dzogchen materials not requiring DI?

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:03 pm

kausalya wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:39 pm

:good:

This helps! Thanks for the time you've taken to explain it.
You’re welcome! Glad it helped. I just wanna make a clarification to something I said. When I said the main practice “doesn’t involve visualization,” I was referring to resting in the natural state, which is the ultimate point. But Dzogchen practice always takes place in the context of guru yoga practice, all versions of which involve some sort of visualization, and then dissolution of said visualization. So that visualization can be likened to the traditional Buddhist symbolism of the “raft,” which when you get to the “other shore”—in this case, the natural state—you relinquish.

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