Immutable Nature of the Primordial State

smcj
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Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State

Post by smcj » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:08 pm

I have really come around to the Shentong presentation via the Kagyu presentation.
If you’re really interested, Brunnhölzl’s “When Clouds Part” is an excellent read on the subject. He has a whole section with summaries of how various Karma Kagyu masters have interpreted Shentong over the centuries. It is scholarly, long, and expensive, but well worth it if you’re interested.

*****

BTW the “Rangtong Ma-yin-gag” is the view that I’m leaning towards now. It has self-emptiness but with the universal positive qualities of Buddha Nature also—if I understand it correctly. There’s no separate Reality, which is the offensive Hindu heresy. It is mentioned in Situ R’s “Creation and Completion”.

To me the positive intrinsic qualities of Buddha Nature are what is important. Saying it is separate and Real is just adding emphasis.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

krodha
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Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State

Post by krodha » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:54 pm

smcj wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:08 pm
Saying it is separate and Real is just adding emphasis.
Is it though?

smcj
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Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State

Post by smcj » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:31 am

krodha wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:54 pm
smcj wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:08 pm
Saying it is separate and Real is just adding emphasis.
Is it though?
That’s how it is taught.
Once I become a Buddha I’ll let you know how it actually is—if I can find the words.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:35 am

smcj wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:08 pm
I have really come around to the Shentong presentation via the Kagyu presentation.
If you’re really interested, Brunnhölzl’s “When Clouds Part” is an excellent read on the subject. He has a whole section with summaries of how various Karma Kagyu masters have interpreted Shentong over the centuries. It is scholarly, long, and expensive, but well worth it if you’re interested.

*****

BTW the “Rangtong Ma-yin-gag” is the view that I’m leaning towards now. It has self-emptiness but with the universal positive qualities of Buddha Nature also—if I understand it correctly. There’s no separate Reality, which is the offensive Hindu heresy. It is mentioned in Situ R’s “Creation and Completion”.

To me the positive intrinsic qualities of Buddha Nature are what is important. Saying it is separate and Real is just adding emphasis.

If I had a thesis
I would be at fault,
Since I alone have no thesis,
I alone am free from fault.
— Nagarjuna
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Matt J
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Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State

Post by Matt J » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:02 pm

I wasn't able to find the analysis in prior posts. Is there a link?

Are you all suggesting that the Dzogchen taught by Kagyu masters (i.e Thrangu, Mingyur, Tsoknyi, Dzogchen Ponlop etc. Rinpoches) is compromised somehow by a Shentong stance? The heart of Dzogchen as far as I understand is not a conceptual view.
krodha wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:04 pm
The defining and novel aspects of gzhan stong are its mapping of the three natures of Yogācāra over the two truths, which ends up compromising the intention of both Yogācāra (3N) and Madhyamaka (2T).

Also gzhan stong’s interpretation of Buddha qualities and the kāyas, specifically how they are treated in the basis, path and result schematic is absolutely in conflict with Dzogchen. Gzhan stong states that the kāyas are fully formed at the time of the basis and are fully established at the time of the result, nothing like this is found in Dzogchen.

Then there is gzhan stong’s novel interpretation of the five treatises, which is unrelated to Dzogchen but a sticking point for many.

Dzogchen synthesizes Yogācāra and Madhyamaka quite well. The same cannot be said for gzhan stong, which is wrought with numerous issues.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:52 pm

Matt J wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:02 pm
I wasn't able to find the analysis in prior posts. Is there a link?

Are you all suggesting that the Dzogchen taught by Kagyu masters (i.e Thrangu, Mingyur, Tsoknyi, Dzogchen Ponlop etc. Rinpoches) is compromised somehow by a Shentong stance? The heart of Dzogchen as far as I understand is not a conceptual view.
gzhan stong is an analytical approach. Dzogchen is a vajrayāna system; the former is coarse, the latter is subtle. The latter does not depend on any analytical system at all; it depends on the introduction by a qualified master.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
Posts: 5756
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State

Post by smcj » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:32 pm

Historically the whole Shentong thing started when a Sakya scholar met a group of Kalachakra practitioners that had gained realization. They said emptiness was not at all the way it was presented in Madhyamaka. So the scholar took it upon himself to take what these guys were saying and then went back and reinterpreted a bunch of classic texts from their perspective so as to legitimize what they were saying to a greater audience.

So the true source for Shentong view is a bunch of realized Kalachakra Tantra yogis, not intellectual study—although it got presented as philosophy almost immediately.
Last edited by smcj on Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:57 pm

smcj wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:32 pm
Historically the whole Shentong thing started when a Sakya scholar met a group of Kalachakra practitioners that had gained realization.
The Jonangpas would take exception to Dolbupa being called a Sakyapa.

They said emptiness was not at all the way it was presented in Madhyamaka. So the scholar took it upon himself to take what these guys were saying and then went back and reinterpreted a bunch of classic texts from their perspective so as to legitimize what they were saying to a greater audience.
Yes, and in the process, rather than legitimizing their view, he caused it to be subjected to further criticisms based on errors others perceived in his presentation of Yogacara, and just maybe too, because of his rather self-congratulatory style of writing.

That said, the version of gzhan stong followed today in Kagyu more resembles the Sakya scholar Sakya Chogden than Dolbupa. Gzhan stong itself also has a number of variations, as any mature tradition is likely to have.

But I am pretty sure also that Kalacakra is off topic in the Dzogchen forum...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
Posts: 5756
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Immutable Nature of the Primordial State

Post by smcj » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:57 pm
smcj wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:32 pm
Historically the whole Shentong thing started when a Sakya scholar met a group of Kalachakra practitioners that had gained realization.
The Jonangpas would take exception to Dolbupa being called a Sakyapa.

They said emptiness was not at all the way it was presented in Madhyamaka. So the scholar took it upon himself to take what these guys were saying and then went back and reinterpreted a bunch of classic texts from their perspective so as to legitimize what they were saying to a greater audience.
Yes, and in the process, rather than legitimizing their view, he caused it to be subjected to further criticisms based on errors others perceived in his presentation of Yogacara, and just maybe too, because of his rather self-congratulatory style of writing.
So true.
That said, the version of gzhan stong followed today in Kagyu more resembles the Sakya scholar Sakya Chogden than Dolbupa.
You’d know more about that than I would.
Ghana stong itself also has a number of variations, as any mature tradition is likely to have.
Also true.
But I am pretty sure also that Kalacakra is off topic in the Dzogchen forum...
Oops.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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