What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

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Aryjna
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What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by Aryjna » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:17 pm

[Split from Yidam and Dzogchen]
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:13 pm
Mariusz wrote:
Namdrol wrote: Most people think that Buddhahood is irrersible; Dzogchen on the other hand asserts that the buddhahood of the lower yanas is reverts into the basis, and only Dzogchen results in complete and irreversible buddhahood.
N
How it is possible?
Is it somehow related to “Youthful Vase Body” (Wyl. Gzhon-Nu Bum-sku) which can be "broken" even after the buddhahood, when from it will arise the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) and they will be not spontaneously accomplished (Wyl. Lhun-Grub) because of Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) again?

It is because buddhahood of lower yānas is incomplete and does not reach the stage of ka dag chen po, great original purity. The simplest way to explain it is that after the this universe dissolves and the next one arises, those beings who have not achieved the stage of ka dag chen po start all over.

N
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:30 pm
There are three explanations possible, given that Dzogchen tantras and traditions definitely state that Samantabhadra was intiallly subject to either one or two ignorances (ma rig pa, avidyā):

1) The Dzogchen assertion that all sentient beings attain "full awakening (sangs rgyas)" at the end of a given mahākalpa requires interpetation and must not be taken literally.
2) Buddhahood is, up to a point, in fact reversible.
3) Buddhas and sentient beings newly form at the beginning of a mahākalapa.

All three possibilities present problems in terms of traditional Indian Mahāyāna Buddhology.

This controversy first came to my attention when my Sakya khenpo mentioned it in passing in the early '90's.
This is not very pleasant. If there is a complete reset at the end of a mahakalpa is all karma reset as well? That would invalidate the majority of dharma schools/traditions unless it is more or less certain that one gets from the 10th to the 16th by the end of the mahakalpa, or unless the merit/progress is to some degree retained.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Miroku » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:58 pm

Hm, that is quite a bummer. Can't help but feel a bit down because of it. :) Is it really like that? How can buddhahood be reversible?
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Aryjna » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:23 pm

Miroku wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:58 pm
Hm, that is quite a bummer. Can't help but feel a bit down because of it. :) Is it really like that? How can buddhahood be reversible?
It invalidates karma (if karma is also reset which is what is sounds like), it also invalidates the Mahayana motivation as everyone will attain some kind of buddhahood and then reset, leaving only Dzogchen but as it looks like at the moment also weakens it significantly as well.

Smoking crack and practicing are no different if there are resets at frequent intervals.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Miroku » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:28 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:23 pm
Miroku wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:58 pm
Hm, that is quite a bummer. Can't help but feel a bit down because of it. :) Is it really like that? How can buddhahood be reversible?
It invalidates karma (if karma is also reset which is what is sounds like), it also invalidates the Mahayana motivation as everyone will attain some kind of buddhahood and then reset, leaving only Dzogchen but as it looks like at the moment also weakens it significantly as well.

Smoking crack and practicing are no different if there are resets at frequent intervals.
But shouldn't it be like with new universe when a new universe is created from the karma of the beings from the old one?
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Aryjna » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:30 pm

Miroku wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:28 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:23 pm
Miroku wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:58 pm
Hm, that is quite a bummer. Can't help but feel a bit down because of it. :) Is it really like that? How can buddhahood be reversible?
It invalidates karma (if karma is also reset which is what is sounds like), it also invalidates the Mahayana motivation as everyone will attain some kind of buddhahood and then reset, leaving only Dzogchen but as it looks like at the moment also weakens it significantly as well.

Smoking crack and practicing are no different if there are resets at frequent intervals.
But shouldn't it be like with new universe when a new universe is created from the karma of the beings from the old one?
I don't know, but in that case how can the buddhas lose the accumulation of merit that led to buddhahood.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Miroku » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:40 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:30 pm
Miroku wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:28 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:23 pm


It invalidates karma (if karma is also reset which is what is sounds like), it also invalidates the Mahayana motivation as everyone will attain some kind of buddhahood and then reset, leaving only Dzogchen but as it looks like at the moment also weakens it significantly as well.

Smoking crack and practicing are no different if there are resets at frequent intervals.
But shouldn't it be like with new universe when a new universe is created from the karma of the beings from the old one?
I don't know, but in that case how can the buddhas lose the accumulation of merit that led to buddhahood.
I don't know either. :D I just can't really process it. Isn't buddhahood resting in rigpa? How can there be a difference how one rests in it more? I understand difference between arhats and buddhas (or I think I do) and it makes sense to me that Arhats still have some work to do. But since some bodhisattvas reached bhumis where they are supposed to not be able to fall down anymore, how is it possible that according to dzogchen they can? Does also Chenrezig gets "reseted". Sorry these seems to be more centered at Malcolm, probably. :D

It just does feel bit futile, suddenly. :D
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Aryjna » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:45 pm

Miroku wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:40 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:30 pm
Miroku wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:28 pm


But shouldn't it be like with new universe when a new universe is created from the karma of the beings from the old one?
I don't know, but in that case how can the buddhas lose the accumulation of merit that led to buddhahood.
I don't know either. :D I just can't really process it. Isn't buddhahood resting in rigpa? How can there be a difference how one rests in it more? I understand difference between arhats and buddhas (or I think I do) and it makes sense to me that Arhats still have some work to do. But since some bodhisattvas reached bhumis where they are supposed to not be able to fall down anymore, how is it possible that according to dzogchen they can? Does also Chenrezig gets "reseted". Sorry these seems to be more centered at Malcolm, probably. :D

It just does feel bit futile, suddenly. :D
Well, there is the one possibility mentioned by Malcolm that this is not actually the case, and that maybe that statement needs to be interpreted somehow. Chenrezig should be at the maximum level I suppose.

I read this thread now and I brought this up in case Malcolm has any new information, as it is from several years ago.

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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:06 am

Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:17 pm
[Split from Yidam and Dzogchen]
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:13 pm
Mariusz wrote: How it is possible?
Is it somehow related to “Youthful Vase Body” (Wyl. Gzhon-Nu Bum-sku) which can be "broken" even after the buddhahood, when from it will arise the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) and they will be not spontaneously accomplished (Wyl. Lhun-Grub) because of Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) again?

It is because buddhahood of lower yānas is incomplete and does not reach the stage of ka dag chen po, great original purity. The simplest way to explain it is that after the this universe dissolves and the next one arises, those beings who have not achieved the stage of ka dag chen po start all over.

N
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:30 pm
There are three explanations possible, given that Dzogchen tantras and traditions definitely state that Samantabhadra was intiallly subject to either one or two ignorances (ma rig pa, avidyā):

1) The Dzogchen assertion that all sentient beings attain "full awakening (sangs rgyas)" at the end of a given mahākalpa requires interpetation and must not be taken literally.
2) Buddhahood is, up to a point, in fact reversible.
3) Buddhas and sentient beings newly form at the beginning of a mahākalapa.

All three possibilities present problems in terms of traditional Indian Mahāyāna Buddhology.

This controversy first came to my attention when my Sakya khenpo mentioned it in passing in the early '90's.
This is not very pleasant. If there is a complete reset at the end of a mahakalpa is all karma reset as well? That would invalidate the majority of dharma schools/traditions unless it is more or less certain that one gets from the 10th to the 16th by the end of the mahakalpa, or unless the merit/progress is to some degree retained.
does the end of mahakalpa ends samsara? here we are.
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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:09 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:06 am
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:17 pm
[Split from Yidam and Dzogchen]
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:13 pm



It is because buddhahood of lower yānas is incomplete and does not reach the stage of ka dag chen po, great original purity. The simplest way to explain it is that after the this universe dissolves and the next one arises, those beings who have not achieved the stage of ka dag chen po start all over.

N
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:30 pm
There are three explanations possible, given that Dzogchen tantras and traditions definitely state that Samantabhadra was intiallly subject to either one or two ignorances (ma rig pa, avidyā):

1) The Dzogchen assertion that all sentient beings attain "full awakening (sangs rgyas)" at the end of a given mahākalpa requires interpetation and must not be taken literally.
2) Buddhahood is, up to a point, in fact reversible.
3) Buddhas and sentient beings newly form at the beginning of a mahākalapa.

All three possibilities present problems in terms of traditional Indian Mahāyāna Buddhology.

This controversy first came to my attention when my Sakya khenpo mentioned it in passing in the early '90's.
This is not very pleasant. If there is a complete reset at the end of a mahakalpa is all karma reset as well? That would invalidate the majority of dharma schools/traditions unless it is more or less certain that one gets from the 10th to the 16th by the end of the mahakalpa, or unless the merit/progress is to some degree retained.
does the end of mahakalpa ends samsara? here we are.
I think you didnt't read the quotes carefully. The implication as it stands is that if you are not on the 16th bhumi by the end of the mahakalpa, you are frak along with everyone else connected to you.

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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:19 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:09 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:06 am
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:17 pm
[Split from Yidam and Dzogchen]




This is not very pleasant. If there is a complete reset at the end of a mahakalpa is all karma reset as well? That would invalidate the majority of dharma schools/traditions unless it is more or less certain that one gets from the 10th to the 16th by the end of the mahakalpa, or unless the merit/progress is to some degree retained.
does the end of mahakalpa ends samsara? here we are.
I think you didnt't read the quotes carefully. The implication as it stands is that if you are not on the 16th bhumi by the end of the mahakalpa, you are frak along with everyone else connected to you.
I just readed what was quoted, i'm sorry if I didn't get it all.

there is no karma reset, that I said. I was surprised that the idea of a karma reset in the relative level came here in a buddhist forum.
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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:38 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:19 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:09 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:06 am


does the end of mahakalpa ends samsara? here we are.
I think you didnt't read the quotes carefully. The implication as it stands is that if you are not on the 16th bhumi by the end of the mahakalpa, you are frak along with everyone else connected to you.
I just readed what was quoted, i'm sorry if I didn't get it all.

there is no karma reset, that I said. I was surprised that the idea of a karma reset in the relative level came here in a buddhist forum.
If there is no karma reset it should not be possible to have a general reset at the end of the mahakalpa. If the karma of all beings is not reset then it is not a reset at all.

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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by heart » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:29 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:38 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:19 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:09 am

I think you didnt't read the quotes carefully. The implication as it stands is that if you are not on the 16th bhumi by the end of the mahakalpa, you are frak along with everyone else connected to you.
I just readed what was quoted, i'm sorry if I didn't get it all.

there is no karma reset, that I said. I was surprised that the idea of a karma reset in the relative level came here in a buddhist forum.
If there is no karma reset it should not be possible to have a general reset at the end of the mahakalpa. If the karma of all beings is not reset then it is not a reset at all.
In have no idea where you get this karma reset from, can you provide a quote? There is no way to avoid cause and effect not even at the end of a mahakalpa.

According to the Vima Nyingtik once you gain liberation there is no reversion possible, it is "like being cured of smallpox".

Also, it makes a big difference how long you can rest in the natural state because the omniscient quality need some time to flower fully.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:32 pm

heart wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:29 pm
In have no idea where you get this karma reset from, can you provide a quote? There is no way to avoid cause and effect not even at the end of a mahakalpa.

According to the Vima Nyingtik once you gain liberation there is no reversion possible, it is "like being cured of smallpox".

Also, it makes a big difference how long you can rest in the natural state because the omniscient quality need some time to flower fully.

/magnus
It is in earlier posts in the thread Yidam and Dzogchen, mentioned by Malcolm, I quoted the main posts on the subject in my first post in this thread.

Mainly:
Namdrol wrote:
Most people think that Buddhahood is irrersible; Dzogchen on the other hand asserts that the buddhahood of the lower yanas is reverts into the basis, and only Dzogchen results in complete and irreversible buddhahood.
N

It is because buddhahood of lower yānas is incomplete and does not reach the stage of ka dag chen po, great original purity. The simplest way to explain it is that after the this universe dissolves and the next one arises, those beings who have not achieved the stage of ka dag chen po start all over.

N

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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:33 pm

Also, it has been mentioned before by Malcolm in a different thread, that at the end of a mahakalpa the realms empty from the hells upwards, leaving every single being in some kind of buddhahood, but when the next mahakalpa starts they lose that state.

Edit: which creates the question what happens to their karma, because that does not make much sense if their karma remains. And also in the case of a 10th bhumi Sutrayana buddha who will possibly be 'reset' at the end of the mahakalpa, what happens to his accumulations?

Not to mention someone who is on their way to buddhahood for the past 2.5 asankheya kalpas and is caught with their pants down by the ending of the mahakalpa.

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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by heart » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:55 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:32 pm
heart wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:29 pm
In have no idea where you get this karma reset from, can you provide a quote? There is no way to avoid cause and effect not even at the end of a mahakalpa.

According to the Vima Nyingtik once you gain liberation there is no reversion possible, it is "like being cured of smallpox".

Also, it makes a big difference how long you can rest in the natural state because the omniscient quality need some time to flower fully.

/magnus
It is in earlier posts in the thread Yidam and Dzogchen, mentioned by Malcolm, I quoted the main posts on the subject in my first post in this thread.

Mainly:
Namdrol wrote:
Most people think that Buddhahood is irrersible; Dzogchen on the other hand asserts that the buddhahood of the lower yanas is reverts into the basis, and only Dzogchen results in complete and irreversible buddhahood.
N

It is because buddhahood of lower yānas is incomplete and does not reach the stage of ka dag chen po, great original purity. The simplest way to explain it is that after the this universe dissolves and the next one arises, those beings who have not achieved the stage of ka dag chen po start all over.

N
It is generally called Dzogchen hyperbole, but if your main practice is Att there is nothing to worry about.

/magnus
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~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by heart » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:58 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:33 pm
Also, it has been mentioned before by Malcolm in a different thread, that at the end of a mahakalpa the realms empty from the hells upwards, leaving every single being in some kind of buddhahood, but when the next mahakalpa starts they lose that state.

Edit: which creates the question what happens to their karma, because that does not make much sense if their karma remains. And also in the case of a 10th bhumi Sutrayana buddha who will possibly be 'reset' at the end of the mahakalpa, what happens to his accumulations?

Not to mention someone who is on their way to buddhahood for the past 2.5 asankheya kalpas and is caught with their pants down by the ending of the mahakalpa.
But you don't find the quote? I put my trust in Nyingtik it is a lot easier. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:11 pm

heart wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:58 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:33 pm
Also, it has been mentioned before by Malcolm in a different thread, that at the end of a mahakalpa the realms empty from the hells upwards, leaving every single being in some kind of buddhahood, but when the next mahakalpa starts they lose that state.

Edit: which creates the question what happens to their karma, because that does not make much sense if their karma remains. And also in the case of a 10th bhumi Sutrayana buddha who will possibly be 'reset' at the end of the mahakalpa, what happens to his accumulations?

Not to mention someone who is on their way to buddhahood for the past 2.5 asankheya kalpas and is caught with their pants down by the ending of the mahakalpa.
But you don't find the quote? I put my trust in Nyingtik it is a lot easier. :smile:

/magnus
I dont think he provided a specific quote in that thread. Of course it is much better if this is just hyperbole and not really the case.

There is this from another thread. Though not completely clear if it refers to the same thing at the ending of a mahakalpa, it seems it does:
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5474&p=59781#p59781
Garab Dorje explains the reason why there is stirring in the basis in his commentary on The Single Son of the All the Buddhas Tantra:

At that time, from the naturally occurring blessings of the personal experience of the realization of the heart essence (snying thig), having recognized one's own state, in one lifetime, everyone will attain the result of Buddhahood. From now on, the emptied pit of samsara will not appear as the six kinds of living beings. For twenty thousand eons, sentient beings will not appear possessing a bodily form having severed the stream of samsara. After that, from the arising of the subtle latent defilements of different actions, samsara and nirvana will arise in the same way as before.

Why is this possible? Again, the String of Pearls clarifies:

Luminosity itself stores traces.

Luminosity ['od gsal], the nature [rang bzhin], which is the naturally formed [lhun grub] aspect of the basis, stores traces.

As I said, these issues are subtle, difficult and would take a long time to properly flesh out. Since these things take a long to time to flesh out, and since the explanation of the basis and the arising of the basis and so on and forth is really only relevant to tögal practice and is meant to provide a basis for understanding the result of that practice, delving into explorations of that topic prior to understanding the context of that explanation causes people to become trapped in a lot of useless conceptual proliferation.
Judging by this, it seems like after all it is probably not a reset, as the karmic traces seem to be preserved (provided they are preserved entirely and not just as minor causes to plunge back down), even though there is a break from samsara where all sentient beings are in buddhahood for several eons.

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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by fckw » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:13 pm

heart wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:29 pm
Also, it makes a big difference how long you can rest in the natural state because the omniscient quality need some time to flower fully.
/magnus
Can you please elaborate on that? I have never heard of this, but it would explain some things.

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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by heart » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:38 pm

fckw wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:13 pm
heart wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:29 pm
Also, it makes a big difference how long you can rest in the natural state because the omniscient quality need some time to flower fully.
/magnus
Can you please elaborate on that? I have never heard of this, but it would explain some things.
I am not sure what to elaborate on. These are oral instructions received many times during Dzogchen teachings. The full scope of the natural state is a bit overwhelming it takes some time getting used to.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: What happens at the end of a mahakalpa?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:51 am

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:38 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:19 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:09 am

I think you didnt't read the quotes carefully. The implication as it stands is that if you are not on the 16th bhumi by the end of the mahakalpa, you are frak along with everyone else connected to you.
I just readed what was quoted, i'm sorry if I didn't get it all.

there is no karma reset, that I said. I was surprised that the idea of a karma reset in the relative level came here in a buddhist forum.
If there is no karma reset it should not be possible to have a general reset at the end of the mahakalpa. If the karma of all beings is not reset then it is not a reset at all.
mm afaik karma is not a material "thing" to be destroyed. and a mental formation is enough for karma to operate, inherently.

btw, according to mahayana it is supposed that the realms up to the desire realms of the devas are those that are destroyed. tushita is not destroyed, is it?
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