Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

LoveFromColorado
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:10 pm

Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by LoveFromColorado »

Hello again,

As one without a direct teacher currently, I am curious about the benefit of pursuing tantric initiations in light of Dzogchen. I have studied FPMT's lamrim program prior to encountering Dzogchen and had in mind receiving a tantric initiation via webcast from Lama Zopa Rinpoche this August. However, after finding Dzogchen and changing my practice and studies accordingly, I am wondering if it would be worthwhile to receive the tantric empowerment at this point. Not that it would be without value - just no longer an essential.

Does anyone have thoughts/comments from their own experiences?

Thank you!
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by Virgo »

It's a very good opportunity.

Kevin...
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 3275
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am
Location: He/Him from EU

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 pm Hello again,

As one without a direct teacher currently, I am curious about the benefit of pursuing tantric initiations in light of Dzogchen. I have studied FPMT's lamrim program prior to encountering Dzogchen and had in mind receiving a tantric initiation via webcast from Lama Zopa Rinpoche this August. However, after finding Dzogchen and changing my practice and studies accordingly, I am wondering if it would be worthwhile to receive the tantric empowerment at this point. Not that it would be without value - just no longer an essential.

Does anyone have thoughts/comments from their own experiences?

Thank you!
Do you have a Dzogchen master?
Also you do not really have to change anything. If you trust Lama Zopa Rinpoche and want to have that connection it is a good idea to receive the empowerment if you have trust in him. I do not see any problem. There were many masters of Dzogchen who happily practiced tantra.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
LoveFromColorado
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:10 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by LoveFromColorado »

Miroku wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:33 pm
LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 pm Hello again,

As one without a direct teacher currently, I am curious about the benefit of pursuing tantric initiations in light of Dzogchen. I have studied FPMT's lamrim program prior to encountering Dzogchen and had in mind receiving a tantric initiation via webcast from Lama Zopa Rinpoche this August. However, after finding Dzogchen and changing my practice and studies accordingly, I am wondering if it would be worthwhile to receive the tantric empowerment at this point. Not that it would be without value - just no longer an essential.

Does anyone have thoughts/comments from their own experiences?

Thank you!
Do you have a Dzogchen master?
Also you do not really have to change anything. If you trust Lama Zopa Rinpoche and want to have that connection it is a good idea to receive the empowerment if you have trust in him. I do not see any problem. There were many masters of Dzogchen who happily practiced tantra.
Alas, no master as of yet. I'm working on that and putting out the thought of meeting a master every day as a part of my practice.

I do trust Lama Zopa Rinpoche, certainly. I like his style of communication as well. Although I have not met any gurus in person, he is one that I consider as a guru as I have followed him on some of his retreats through webcasts so feel that I have received valuable teachings from him. My only hesitation with receiving a Tantric initiation is taking on the obligations that come with it. In my understanding of Dzogchen, it seems that samaya can be a help for some but is not a strict requirement. If others think it is helpful in the Dzogchen path, then I am interested in their experiences. Right now I have a sense of neutrality about it and am definitely open to considering it. I am simply looking for others' experiences in this regard whether they have found it helpful or not on the path of Dzogchen. I should also note that I am only a few months in to Dzogchen studies but have embraced it fully at this point.
Last edited by LoveFromColorado on Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6288
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by heart »

LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 pm Hello again,

As one without a direct teacher currently, I am curious about the benefit of pursuing tantric initiations in light of Dzogchen. I have studied FPMT's lamrim program prior to encountering Dzogchen and had in mind receiving a tantric initiation via webcast from Lama Zopa Rinpoche this August. However, after finding Dzogchen and changing my practice and studies accordingly, I am wondering if it would be worthwhile to receive the tantric empowerment at this point. Not that it would be without value - just no longer an essential.

Does anyone have thoughts/comments from their own experiences?

Thank you!
Dzogchen is also transmitted with empowerment's, for example:

Ritual of empowerment into the dynamic energy of pure awareness, the means for direct introduction to the enlightened intent of the eighteen “mother and child” texts of the Category of Mind

The empowerment of Ngöndzok Gyalpo for Longde

Four empowerment's of the Mengakde; elaborate, unelaborated, very unelaborated and the extremely unelaborated empowerments.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
LoveFromColorado
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:10 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by LoveFromColorado »

Thanks magnus! If this were a Dzogchen empowerment, then I would certainly receive it. I unfortunately missed Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's transmission this last weekend as I was out of cell/Internet range at the time.
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6288
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by heart »

LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:16 pm Thanks magnus! If this were a Dzogchen empowerment, then I would certainly receive it. I unfortunately missed Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's transmission this last weekend as I was out of cell/Internet range at the time.
ChNNR transmission didn't happen, he is in hospital, so don't worry about that. If you want to practice Dzogchen you need to find a master that really have a big impact on you. The empowerments exist but what is really important is to find the master.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
LoveFromColorado
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:10 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by LoveFromColorado »

heart wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:25 pm
LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:16 pm Thanks magnus! If this were a Dzogchen empowerment, then I would certainly receive it. I unfortunately missed Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's transmission this last weekend as I was out of cell/Internet range at the time.
ChNNR transmission didn't happen, he is in hospital, so don't worry about that. If you want to practice Dzogchen you need to find a master that really have a big impact on you. The empowerments exist but what is really important is to find the master.

/magnus
I was unaware of ChNNR's condition - thank you for letting me know!

I definitely am looking for a master an hope to find one. In the interim, I am doing my own studying by reading ChNNR's books as well as Alan Wallace's and working through the latter's training materials on Wisdom Academy. Wallace elucidated in one of my recently watched videos that Dudjom Lingpa encouraged the study of previous Vidyadharas in absence of a master. That is where I currently stand. From my studies of guru yoga in the lamrim path I certainly recognize the vital importance of a guru.
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 3275
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am
Location: He/Him from EU

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:16 pm Thanks magnus! If this were a Dzogchen empowerment, then I would certainly receive it. I unfortunately missed Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's transmission this last weekend as I was out of cell/Internet range at the time.
Do not worry there was no transmission as Rinpoche has fallen sick again. Anyway, I'd say that if you have confidence in him there is nothing preventing you from receiving teachings. To meet a teacher one needs merit and merit is easily created through proper practice. Plus you have samayas even with dzogchen transmission.

If I were you I'd practice a bit also. Studying is nice, but practice gives it a soul and energy, plus with time thigns get easier to understand. So find a dzogchen master eve if you had to travel and then practice and study.

But really it depends on whether you want to receive teachings from him or not.

For me it actually helped a lot to receive teachings from Drikung Kagyu even though I have transmission from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. It develops my capacity and is good for me at my point of development.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Motova
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by Motova »

I am probably wrong, but for a beginner maybe practicing from a Gelugpa and Dzogchen perspective might be confusing and possibly stressful. For example, from what I have heard is that Gelugpas are more conservative about maintaining practice commitments, so if you receive a specific practice maybe they will be insistent that you practice that everyday for the rest of your life. If that sadhana takes two hours, then that will be a constant reference point in your life. ChNNR teaches Dzogchen and Ati Guru Yoga is the reference point in life, while Tantric practices are seen generally as secondary practices. ChNNR also teaches Tantra but it's always in reference to Dzogchen. After doing a retreat with ChNNR there is a possibility that you won't feel you need to receive anymore teachings, specifically Tantric ones. Of course, after receiving a Gelugpa practice you might feel there is no need for Dzogchen teachings!

You should focus on the Lama who you have the most devotion to and who will inspire you to practice practice practice. As lay practitioners it is not our job to collect teachings or learn a lot of difficult philosophy, it is to practice. Every Vajrayana teaching has many learning curves and hoops to jump through, so I suggest focusing on one Lama and one teaching at the start to maintain a joyful diligence.... Regardless of the practice you start with it will require a lot of determination and dedication to get the ball rolling.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by Aryjna »

LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:10 pm In my understanding of Dzogchen, it seems that samaya can be a help for some but is not a strict requirement. If others think it is helpful in the Dzogchen path, then I am interested in their experiences.
It is not optional. When you receive any such transmission/empowerment it has samaya, it doesn't make much difference if it is Dzogchen or Mahayoga in this regard.
Motova wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:45 pm For example, from what I have heard is that Gelugpas are more conservative about maintaining practice commitments, so if you receive a specific practice maybe they will be insistent that you practice that everyday for the rest of your life. If that sadhana takes two hours, then that will be a constant reference point in your life.
I am not sure either as I have not taken any empowerments from Gelukpa masters, but from what I have seen on this forum it is more likely that it will be a 10 minute commitment, or even no practice commitment at all. But who knows, maybe in some cases there is a long practice commitment.
User avatar
Mantrik
Former staff member
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by Mantrik »

Aryjna wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:54 pm
LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:10 pm In my understanding of Dzogchen, it seems that samaya can be a help for some but is not a strict requirement. If others think it is helpful in the Dzogchen path, then I am interested in their experiences.
It is not optional. When you receive any such transmission/empowerment it has samaya, it doesn't make much difference if it is Dzogchen or Mahayoga in this regard.
Motova wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:45 pm For example, from what I have heard is that Gelugpas are more conservative about maintaining practice commitments, so if you receive a specific practice maybe they will be insistent that you practice that everyday for the rest of your life. If that sadhana takes two hours, then that will be a constant reference point in your life.
I am not sure either as I have not taken any empowerments from Gelukpa masters, but from what I have seen on this forum it is more likely that it will be a 10 minute commitment, or even no practice commitment at all. But who knows, maybe in some cases there is a long practice commitment.
If it is HYT, the time commitment daily can be considerable, for example with Vajrayogini. It would be wise to check very carefully.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by Aryjna »

Mantrik wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:24 pm
Aryjna wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:54 pm
LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:10 pm In my understanding of Dzogchen, it seems that samaya can be a help for some but is not a strict requirement. If others think it is helpful in the Dzogchen path, then I am interested in their experiences.
It is not optional. When you receive any such transmission/empowerment it has samaya, it doesn't make much difference if it is Dzogchen or Mahayoga in this regard.
Motova wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:45 pm For example, from what I have heard is that Gelugpas are more conservative about maintaining practice commitments, so if you receive a specific practice maybe they will be insistent that you practice that everyday for the rest of your life. If that sadhana takes two hours, then that will be a constant reference point in your life.
I am not sure either as I have not taken any empowerments from Gelukpa masters, but from what I have seen on this forum it is more likely that it will be a 10 minute commitment, or even no practice commitment at all. But who knows, maybe in some cases there is a long practice commitment.
If it is HYT, the time commitment daily can be considerable, for example with Vajrayogini. It would be wise to check very carefully.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. I am not planning on taking such empowerments for the time being.
LoveFromColorado
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:10 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by LoveFromColorado »

Thanks all! Perhaps I should restate my question slightly. I have currently received no empowerments/initiations, and I understand that samaya may be required if I were to receive a Mahayoga or Dzogchen empowerment. Since I am in a state with no commitments, my question is more along the lines of would adding a Mahayoga samaya be of benefit (based on other's experience) or should I wait for a Dzogchen empowerment?

In terms of practice, I do have a daily meditation and study practice that I follow... my question is more would a Mahayoga empowerment be of some benefit (based on others' experiences).

Thanks again!!
LoveFromColorado
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:10 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by LoveFromColorado »

Mantrik wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:24 pm It would be wise to check very carefully.
Thank you for the wise words! There are three initiations Lama Zopa will be performing:

Medicine Buddha jenang
Red Tara
Vajrasattva

However, I'm not finding any resources detailing the samaya involved for these practices. Is there a particular place I should look or should I contact the centers involved?
User avatar
Mantrik
Former staff member
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by Mantrik »

LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:02 pm
Mantrik wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:24 pm It would be wise to check very carefully.
Thank you for the wise words! There are three initiations Lama Zopa will be performing:

Medicine Buddha jenang
Red Tara
Vajrasattva

However, I'm not finding any resources detailing the samaya involved for these practices. Is there a particular place I should look or should I contact the centers involved?
I'd contact the centre. You can never be absolutely sure but I think FPMT are pretty consistent. You may also be able to Google the FPMT Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive to find out more about the teachings and practices.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Motova
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by Motova »

LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:02 pm
Mantrik wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:24 pm It would be wise to check very carefully.
Thank you for the wise words! There are three initiations Lama Zopa will be performing:

Medicine Buddha jenang
Red Tara
Vajrasattva

However, I'm not finding any resources detailing the samaya involved for these practices. Is there a particular place I should look or should I contact the centers involved?
Traditionally you are not supposed to know about the samaya until you receive it.
LoveFromColorado wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:42 pm Thanks all! Perhaps I should restate my question slightly. I have currently received no empowerments/initiations, and I understand that samaya may be required if I were to receive a Mahayoga or Dzogchen empowerment. Since I am in a state with no commitments, my question is more along the lines of would adding a Mahayoga samaya be of benefit (based on other's experience) or should I wait for a Dzogchen empowerment?

In terms of practice, I do have a daily meditation and study practice that I follow... my question is more would a Mahayoga empowerment be of some benefit (based on others' experiences).

Thanks again!!
Every empowerment has samaya.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
User avatar
Dechen Norbu
Posts: 3056
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by Dechen Norbu »

If I were you I would try to attend the teachings of a few Lamas. I would get to know their sanghas and see how they role. Hang around for a while and see if things fall in place. After having some knowledge about these dynamics, then I would consider taking empowerments.
Find a teacher and a sangha you connect with, carefully investigating what's going on.Then things will flow easier and probably you won't even feel the need to make these questions. FPMT seems well organized and I never heard but good words about Lama Zopa. Still, if Dzogchen is your game, perhaps that's not the most adequate teacher for you. But it's always better to find a teacher first and then empowerments come naturally. As in everything, there are exceptions (like public empowerments bestowed by HHDL and so on), but it's a good rule of thumb, I guess.

Good luck!
LoveFromColorado
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:10 pm

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by LoveFromColorado »

Thanks Dechen Norbu. I unfortunately do not have a sangha with a lama in my immediate vicinity although there is a Buddhist community that meets weekly which I attend. There is a lama that stops in from time to time but he has not been there since I started attending. I also know that he does not provide initiations.

At any rate, it sounds like I might be better served to hold off before I know what I am getting into and instead stick with my current practice and studies until I find a direct teacher. I reached out to the centers hosting Lama Zopa Rinpoche and I may attend the webcasts as a blessing instead of an empowerment. The last thing I want to do is end up with a samaya prematurely that I feel takes away from my actual practice.

Thanks again everyone!
User avatar
weitsicht
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:47 pm
Location: Right Here and Now

Re: Tantric Empowerment and Dzogchen

Post by weitsicht »

Hi LoveFromColorado,

my short sweet advice are:
  • don't rush, take it easy
  • if you don't feel like entering into tantric samayas, don't do it. Start to look and trust for your intuition.
    There are personalities that work with dzogchen only, directly jump into the nonconceptual. Others need the visualization and ritual to create everyday reminder. Ultimately, the practise is without practise. How to get there is different for each individual.
  • If you create that anxiety for entering a samaya, look at that anxiety. Usually, whatever life brings up for us will be something we will be able to cope with.
  • As Montova mentioned, develop faith in the lama you feel like following, this is what can give you the drive for that "joyful diligence" as he put it
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”