Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

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mandog
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Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by mandog » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:29 pm

What is the relationship between the 17 Dzogchen tantras and the Khandro/Vima Nyingthik? Are the latter two technically commentaries on some of the former 17? Is there actually still a tradition of giving lung/tri for the 17 tantras, or at this point, is the transmission of these texts largely inactive?

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by heart » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:04 pm

mandog wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:29 pm
What is the relationship between the 17 Dzogchen tantras and the Khandro/Vima Nyingthik? Are the latter two technically commentaries on some of the former 17? Is there actually still a tradition of giving lung/tri for the 17 tantras, or at this point, is the transmission of these texts largely inactive?
17 tantras are a part of the Khandro Nyingtik and the Vima Nyingtik. The transmission of both these traditions are very much alive together with Longchenpa's commentaries as the Nyingtik Yabshi which include "lung" for the 17 tantras.

The 17 tantras are not the only Dzogchen tantras.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm

mandog wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:29 pm
What is the relationship between the 17 Dzogchen tantras and the Khandro/Vima Nyingthik? Are the latter two technically commentaries on some of the former 17? Is there actually still a tradition of giving lung/tri for the 17 tantras, or at this point, is the transmission of these texts largely inactive?
Magnus's answer is correct, but there is a bit more detail to add.

The Vima Nyinthig is a commentary on the material belonging to the 17 tantras, being a portion of the 119 intimate instructions, most of which are presently lost. The Vima Nyinthik is commonly considered "Kama," although it in fact is a terma revealed by Zhangton Tashi Dorje in the early 12th century.

The Khandro Nyinthig is considered part of Terma, revealed in the early 14th century, and is a commentary and practice cycle upon a tantra called the Longsal Barma Nyima Gyud, which organizes the material in the 17 tantras into a progressive path, which includes general preliminaries such as Vajrasattva, practices related to Anuyoga, as well as Dzogchen specific practices.

The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted. The 17 tantras themselves and related material are also termas, though considered part of kama, revealed during the two decades prior to Atisha's death, somewhere in the early 1040's.

These teachings are the most important teachings of the Nyingma School.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

mandog
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by mandog » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:55 pm

These are very clear answers, thank you Magnus and Malcolm.

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Khandro Nyinthig is considered part of Terma, revealed in the early 14th century, and is a commentary and practice cycle upon a tantra called the Longsal Barma Nyima Gyud, which organizes the material in the 17 tantras into a progressive path, which includes general preliminaries such as Vajrasattva, practices related to Anuyoga, as well as Dzogchen specific practices.
Ah, so that is why Dzogchen terma cycles feature practices belonging to all the three inner yanas (and are said to necessarily involve a tantric ngondro)! Thank you, Malcolm, most useful!
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Malcolm
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:59 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:30 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Khandro Nyinthig is considered part of Terma, revealed in the early 14th century, and is a commentary and practice cycle upon a tantra called the Longsal Barma Nyima Gyud, which organizes the material in the 17 tantras into a progressive path, which includes general preliminaries such as Vajrasattva, practices related to Anuyoga, as well as Dzogchen specific practices.
Ah, so that is why Dzogchen terma cycles feature practices belonging to all the three inner yanas (and are said to necessarily involve a tantric ngondro)! Thank you, Malcolm, most useful!
Yes, but also the Dzogpa Rangjung Tantra, often referred to as the empowerment tantra, is largely concerned with practices connected to Hayagriva, repelling obstacles from Nagas and so, guiding practitioners through the Bardo, etc. It is considered to be the tantra of useful methods.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:34 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:59 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:30 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Khandro Nyinthig is considered part of Terma, revealed in the early 14th century, and is a commentary and practice cycle upon a tantra called the Longsal Barma Nyima Gyud, which organizes the material in the 17 tantras into a progressive path, which includes general preliminaries such as Vajrasattva, practices related to Anuyoga, as well as Dzogchen specific practices.
Ah, so that is why Dzogchen terma cycles feature practices belonging to all the three inner yanas (and are said to necessarily involve a tantric ngondro)! Thank you, Malcolm, most useful!
Yes, but also the Dzogpa Rangjung Tantra, often referred to as the empowerment tantra, is largely concerned with practices connected to Hayagriva, repelling obstacles from Nagas and so, guiding practitioners through the Bardo, etc. It is considered to be the tantra of useful methods.
Thank you!
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:46 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted. The 17 tantras themselves and related material are also termas, though considered part of kama, revealed during the two decades prior to Atisha's death, somewhere in the early 1040's.
If I understand you correctly, it means that prior to Atisha's death there were no Dzogchen tantras (in this world) at all?
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Malcolm
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:20 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:46 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted. The 17 tantras themselves and related material are also termas, though considered part of kama, revealed during the two decades prior to Atisha's death, somewhere in the early 1040's.
If I understand you correctly, it means that prior to Atisha's death there were no Dzogchen tantras (in this world) at all?
You did not understand correctly. The 18 Sem sde lungs are present in Tibet from the late 8th and early 9th century. The Kun byed rgyal po is probably not a translation, but a compilation and expansion of the five sems sde lungs. The rmad du 'byung ba tantra is similar, but ancient. There are many other Dzgchen tantras that were written down in the 9th and 10th century, but dating them is difficult.

Then there is the Brahmin cycle, revealed as terma during the late tenth, early eleventh.

Atisha seems to have passed around 1055. The 17 tantras were revealed 15 or 20 years before this date. According to tradition, the seventeen tantras were concealed in a temple about 30k north of Lhasa by Nyangban Tingzin Zangpo. The oral lineage was passed on separately from the texts. These were reunited when Dangma Lhungyal removed the 17 tantras from their place of concealment. He then passed the texts onto Chetsun Senge Wangchuk around 1065. Senge Wangchuk in turn transmitted them to Chegom Nagpo. Chegom Nagpo transmitted them to Zhangton Tashi Dorje in roughly 1108. Zhangton revealed the Vima Nyinthik when he was 21, in roughly 1118.

According to the Nyingthig history, Atisha attained his realization through practicing Dzogchen, actually.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:43 pm

Thanks!
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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