Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

mandog
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Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by mandog » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:29 pm

What is the relationship between the 17 Dzogchen tantras and the Khandro/Vima Nyingthik? Are the latter two technically commentaries on some of the former 17? Is there actually still a tradition of giving lung/tri for the 17 tantras, or at this point, is the transmission of these texts largely inactive?

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by heart » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:04 pm

mandog wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:29 pm
What is the relationship between the 17 Dzogchen tantras and the Khandro/Vima Nyingthik? Are the latter two technically commentaries on some of the former 17? Is there actually still a tradition of giving lung/tri for the 17 tantras, or at this point, is the transmission of these texts largely inactive?
17 tantras are a part of the Khandro Nyingtik and the Vima Nyingtik. The transmission of both these traditions are very much alive together with Longchenpa's commentaries as the Nyingtik Yabshi which include "lung" for the 17 tantras.

The 17 tantras are not the only Dzogchen tantras.

/magnus
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Malcolm
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm

mandog wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:29 pm
What is the relationship between the 17 Dzogchen tantras and the Khandro/Vima Nyingthik? Are the latter two technically commentaries on some of the former 17? Is there actually still a tradition of giving lung/tri for the 17 tantras, or at this point, is the transmission of these texts largely inactive?
Magnus's answer is correct, but there is a bit more detail to add.

The Vima Nyinthig is a commentary on the material belonging to the 17 tantras, being a portion of the 119 intimate instructions, most of which are presently lost. The Vima Nyinthik is commonly considered "Kama," although it in fact is a terma revealed by Zhangton Tashi Dorje in the early 12th century.

The Khandro Nyinthig is considered part of Terma, revealed in the early 14th century, and is a commentary and practice cycle upon a tantra called the Longsal Barma Nyima Gyud, which organizes the material in the 17 tantras into a progressive path, which includes general preliminaries such as Vajrasattva, practices related to Anuyoga, as well as Dzogchen specific practices.

The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted. The 17 tantras themselves and related material are also termas, though considered part of kama, revealed during the two decades prior to Atisha's death, somewhere in the early 1040's.

These teachings are the most important teachings of the Nyingma School.

mandog
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by mandog » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:55 pm

These are very clear answers, thank you Magnus and Malcolm.

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Khandro Nyinthig is considered part of Terma, revealed in the early 14th century, and is a commentary and practice cycle upon a tantra called the Longsal Barma Nyima Gyud, which organizes the material in the 17 tantras into a progressive path, which includes general preliminaries such as Vajrasattva, practices related to Anuyoga, as well as Dzogchen specific practices.
Ah, so that is why Dzogchen terma cycles feature practices belonging to all the three inner yanas (and are said to necessarily involve a tantric ngondro)! Thank you, Malcolm, most useful!
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:59 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:30 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Khandro Nyinthig is considered part of Terma, revealed in the early 14th century, and is a commentary and practice cycle upon a tantra called the Longsal Barma Nyima Gyud, which organizes the material in the 17 tantras into a progressive path, which includes general preliminaries such as Vajrasattva, practices related to Anuyoga, as well as Dzogchen specific practices.
Ah, so that is why Dzogchen terma cycles feature practices belonging to all the three inner yanas (and are said to necessarily involve a tantric ngondro)! Thank you, Malcolm, most useful!
Yes, but also the Dzogpa Rangjung Tantra, often referred to as the empowerment tantra, is largely concerned with practices connected to Hayagriva, repelling obstacles from Nagas and so, guiding practitioners through the Bardo, etc. It is considered to be the tantra of useful methods.

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:34 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:59 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:30 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Khandro Nyinthig is considered part of Terma, revealed in the early 14th century, and is a commentary and practice cycle upon a tantra called the Longsal Barma Nyima Gyud, which organizes the material in the 17 tantras into a progressive path, which includes general preliminaries such as Vajrasattva, practices related to Anuyoga, as well as Dzogchen specific practices.
Ah, so that is why Dzogchen terma cycles feature practices belonging to all the three inner yanas (and are said to necessarily involve a tantric ngondro)! Thank you, Malcolm, most useful!
Yes, but also the Dzogpa Rangjung Tantra, often referred to as the empowerment tantra, is largely concerned with practices connected to Hayagriva, repelling obstacles from Nagas and so, guiding practitioners through the Bardo, etc. It is considered to be the tantra of useful methods.
Thank you!
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:46 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted. The 17 tantras themselves and related material are also termas, though considered part of kama, revealed during the two decades prior to Atisha's death, somewhere in the early 1040's.
If I understand you correctly, it means that prior to Atisha's death there were no Dzogchen tantras (in this world) at all?
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:20 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:46 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted. The 17 tantras themselves and related material are also termas, though considered part of kama, revealed during the two decades prior to Atisha's death, somewhere in the early 1040's.
If I understand you correctly, it means that prior to Atisha's death there were no Dzogchen tantras (in this world) at all?
You did not understand correctly. The 18 Sem sde lungs are present in Tibet from the late 8th and early 9th century. The Kun byed rgyal po is probably not a translation, but a compilation and expansion of the five sems sde lungs. The rmad du 'byung ba tantra is similar, but ancient. There are many other Dzgchen tantras that were written down in the 9th and 10th century, but dating them is difficult.

Then there is the Brahmin cycle, revealed as terma during the late tenth, early eleventh.

Atisha seems to have passed around 1055. The 17 tantras were revealed 15 or 20 years before this date. According to tradition, the seventeen tantras were concealed in a temple about 30k north of Lhasa by Nyangban Tingzin Zangpo. The oral lineage was passed on separately from the texts. These were reunited when Dangma Lhungyal removed the 17 tantras from their place of concealment. He then passed the texts onto Chetsun Senge Wangchuk around 1065. Senge Wangchuk in turn transmitted them to Chegom Nagpo. Chegom Nagpo transmitted them to Zhangton Tashi Dorje in roughly 1108. Zhangton revealed the Vima Nyinthik when he was 21, in roughly 1118.

According to the Nyingthig history, Atisha attained his realization through practicing Dzogchen, actually.

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:43 pm

Thanks!
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Rinchen Sherab
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Rinchen Sherab » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
mandog wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:29 pm
What is the relationship between the 17 Dzogchen tantras and the Khandro/Vima Nyingthik? Are the latter two technically commentaries on some of the former 17? Is there actually still a tradition of giving lung/tri for the 17 tantras, or at this point, is the transmission of these texts largely inactive?
Magnus's answer is correct, but there is a bit more detail to add.

The Vima Nyinthig is a commentary on the material belonging to the 17 tantras, being a portion of the 119 intimate instructions, most of which are presently lost. The Vima Nyinthik is commonly considered "Kama," although it in fact is a terma revealed by Zhangton Tashi Dorje in the early 12th century.

The Khandro Nyinthig is considered part of Terma, revealed in the early 14th century, and is a commentary and practice cycle upon a tantra called the Longsal Barma Nyima Gyud, which organizes the material in the 17 tantras into a progressive path, which includes general preliminaries such as Vajrasattva, practices related to Anuyoga, as well as Dzogchen specific practices.

The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted. The 17 tantras themselves and related material are also termas, though considered part of kama, revealed during the two decades prior to Atisha's death, somewhere in the early 1040's.

These teachings are the most important teachings of the Nyingma School.
Malcolm,
Are the 17 Tantras contained within the volumes of the Nyingtik Yabzhi? I understand the Yabzhi in terms of lineages (ie Vima Nyingtik from Vimalamitra, Khandro Nyingtik from Guru Rinpoche, and Longchenpa's three commentaries) , but am curious about the actual textual content. I had the fortune to receive all of the Nyingtik Yabzhi empowerments recently in Santa Fe from my guru, as well as some key reading transmissions. I believe in future years we will continue to receive the remaining lung, as well as tri. At any rate, one thing I'm not clear on is what is actually contained within these cycles and in particular if they contain the texts of the 17 tantras.

Also, while I'm at it: I am reading your introduction to the Rigpa Rangshar right now. Note 26 mentions that Rlung is routinely mistranslated as prana. This is very interesting to me. For years I've only ever heard tsa, lung, and tigle equals nadi, prana, and bindu in Sanskrit. Is this incorrect in the tsa lung context as well as in the Dzogchen context? I also have noticed the term prana used in the context of the 4 empowerments within ngondro practice texts (specifically connected with the 2nd empowerment). Should this be vayu across the board? Very interesting indeed.

Thank you very much for your work. I deeply rejoice in your ongoing service to the teachings and beings and pray that you have good health, long life, and freedom from obstacles.

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Marc » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:06 pm

Rinchen Sherab wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:27 pm
Are the 17 Tantras contained within the volumes of the Nyingtik Yabzhi?
AFAIK the 17 Tantras are not in the Nyingtik Yabzhi but in the Nyingma Gyübum. 

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Marc » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted.
Hi Malcolm,

Any specific holder of that lineage that comes to mind ?

Do you know how long it would approximately take for such a Lung to be transmitted ?
A few days ? A week ? More ?

May be could / should we try, as a virtual sangha, to make such a transmission happen...
It woud be such a source of merits...

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Josef » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:59 pm

Marc wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:10 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted.
Hi Malcolm,

Any specific holder of that lineage that comes to mind ?

Do you know how long it would approximately take for such a Lung to be transmitted ?
A few days ? A week ? More ?

May be could / should we try, as a virtual sangha, to make such a transmission happen...
It woud be such a source of merits...
It took several days when I received it a few years ago. Maybe Malcolm remembers exactly how many days.
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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:46 pm

Rinchen Sherab wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:27 pm


Malcolm,
Are the 17 Tantras contained within the volumes of the Nyingtik Yabzhi?
No.


Also, while I'm at it: I am reading your introduction to the Rigpa Rangshar right now. Note 26 mentions that Rlung is routinely mistranslated as prana. This is very interesting to me. For years I've only ever heard tsa, lung, and tigle equals nadi, prana, and bindu in Sanskrit. Is this incorrect in the tsa lung context as well as in the Dzogchen context?
Yes, this is incorrect in every context. It is properly: nāḍī, vāyu, and bindu.

Prāṇa is translated as srog. Thus, prāṇavāyu is translated into Tibetan as srog 'dzin rlung, i.e., life-sustaining vāyu.

I also have noticed the term prana used in the context of the 4 empowerments within ngondro practice texts (specifically connected with the 2nd empowerment). Should this be vayu across the board? Very interesting indeed.
Yes, it should be vāyu across the board.
Thank you very much for your work. I deeply rejoice in your ongoing service to the teachings and beings and pray that you have good health, long life, and freedom from obstacles.
Thank you.

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:49 pm

Marc wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:10 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted.
Hi Malcolm,

Any specific holder of that lineage that comes to mind ?

Do you know how long it would approximately take for such a Lung to be transmitted ?
A few days ? A week ? More ?

May be could / should we try, as a virtual sangha, to make such a transmission happen...
It woud be such a source of merits...
It takes approximately 5 days for the lung of the 17 tantras. Any senior Nyingma Lama can grant this lung. Probably the best people to receive it from at present are Dzongsar Khyentse, Namkhai Nyingpo Rinpoche or Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche (who is actually a Kagyu master). This is not to exclude the many excellent lamas who can also give this lung, such as Khenchen Namdrol, etc.

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by PeterC » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:14 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:49 pm
Marc wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:10 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:27 pm
The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted.
Hi Malcolm,

Any specific holder of that lineage that comes to mind ?

Do you know how long it would approximately take for such a Lung to be transmitted ?
A few days ? A week ? More ?

May be could / should we try, as a virtual sangha, to make such a transmission happen...
It woud be such a source of merits...
It takes approximately 5 days for the lung of the 17 tantras. Any senior Nyingma Lama can grant this lung. Probably the best people to receive it from at present are Dzongsar Khyentse, Namkhai Nyingpo Rinpoche or Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche (who is actually a Kagyu master). This is not to exclude the many excellent lamas who can also give this lung, such as Khenchen Namdrol, etc.
Malcolm - assuming it's not going to be easy to persuade a lama to spend five days doing the full lung, what's your view on the acceptability of other transmission methods for these texts - e.g. having a lama hit you over the head with them, or the Drikung Kagyu guru yoga that allows you to read anything?

That said I second the suggestion of arranging a proper lung. Would be of great benefit to many.

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:23 am

PeterC wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:14 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:49 pm
Marc wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:10 pm


Hi Malcolm,

Any specific holder of that lineage that comes to mind ?

Do you know how long it would approximately take for such a Lung to be transmitted ?
A few days ? A week ? More ?

May be could / should we try, as a virtual sangha, to make such a transmission happen...
It woud be such a source of merits...
It takes approximately 5 days for the lung of the 17 tantras. Any senior Nyingma Lama can grant this lung. Probably the best people to receive it from at present are Dzongsar Khyentse, Namkhai Nyingpo Rinpoche or Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche (who is actually a Kagyu master). This is not to exclude the many excellent lamas who can also give this lung, such as Khenchen Namdrol, etc.
Malcolm - assuming it's not going to be easy to persuade a lama to spend five days doing the full lung, what's your view on the acceptability of other transmission methods for these texts - e.g. having a lama hit you over the head with them, or the Drikung Kagyu guru yoga that allows you to read anything?

That said I second the suggestion of arranging a proper lung. Would be of great benefit to many.
Pewang means you can read it; lung means you have received the transmission. There are exceptions, however.

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by Marc » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:41 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:49 pm
It takes approximately 5 days for the lung of the 17 tantras. Any senior Nyingma Lama can grant this lung. Probably the best people to receive it from at present are Dzongsar Khyentse, Namkhai Nyingpo Rinpoche or Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche (who is actually a Kagyu master). This is not to exclude the many excellent lamas who can also give this lung, such as Khenchen Namdrol, etc.

Great ! Thanks !  
Could you please share some infos about how one could make this happen, and what the proper "etiquette/protocol" for requesting such transmission is ? Specially when one is not a Dharma Center and not a close disciple, or not even a disciple ?
Thx

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Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks

Post by weitsicht » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:31 am

Are they included in the upcoming empowerment at Shechen monatery by Kyabje Rabjam Rinpoche in April?

https://shechen.org/2018/11/2019-sheche ... -schedule/
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