Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1725
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:59 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:25 pm
So... buddha’s Four actions? How does primordially liberated “yogi” do?

Activities are effortless
due to the natural perfection of awakening,


-- Kun byed rgyal po.
Thats the view. Some guy’s translation of a book said something like, “a guru should be a master of mantras.”
I got my Chili Chilaya.

krodha
Posts: 2440
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by krodha » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:00 pm

florin wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:02 am
There are lots of dzogchenpa's that hold the following view:
When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment.


Unfortunately this is completely incorrect .
Such a view is not incorrect. The fact that phenomena are already liberated does not mean you possess a working knowledge of this.

Vairocana:

  • At the time of vidyā, wisdom arises as the dhātu; at the time of avidyā, wisdom appears as samsara.

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1725
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:09 pm

The qualities of a master upon whom to rely... He must be expert in meditation and practice, know how to explain the four branches of approach and accomplishment, and have produced skills in repelling disturbances with mantras of exhortation, curses, and slaying.
-Buddhahood in This Life
I got my Chili Chilaya.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28507
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Malcolm » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:13 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:09 pm
The qualities of a master upon whom to rely... He must be expert in meditation and practice, know how to explain the four branches of approach and accomplishment, and have produced skills in repelling disturbances with mantras of exhortation, curses, and slaying.
-Buddhahood in This Life
Yes. A Dzogchen master ought to be a master of Vajrayāna.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

florin
Posts: 1129
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by florin » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:49 pm

krodha wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:00 pm
florin wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:02 am
There are lots of dzogchenpa's that hold the following view:
When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment.


Unfortunately this is completely incorrect .
Such a view is not incorrect. The fact that phenomena are already liberated does not mean you possess a working knowledge of this.

Vairocana:

  • At the time of vidyā, wisdom arises as the dhātu; at the time of avidyā, wisdom appears as samsara.

The idea was that the view from that passage does not represent the teaching of dzogchen.
You cannot hold that view and yet consider yourself a dzogchenpa .

krodha
Posts: 2440
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by krodha » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:13 pm

florin wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:49 pm
krodha wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:00 pm
florin wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:02 am
There are lots of dzogchenpa's that hold the following view:
When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment.


Unfortunately this is completely incorrect .
Such a view is not incorrect. The fact that phenomena are already liberated does not mean you possess a working knowledge of this.

Vairocana:

  • At the time of vidyā, wisdom arises as the dhātu; at the time of avidyā, wisdom appears as samsara.
The idea was that the view from that passage does not represent the teaching of dzogchen.
Why not? Dzogchen as a teaching contains much nuance and context. It isn’t so cut any dry.
florin wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:49 pm
You cannot hold that view and yet consider yourself a dzogchenpa .
Which view? That the deluded mind results in samsara?

The system of Dzogchen spends a great deal of time explaining how delusion occurs and the mind becomes entrenched in suffering.

Many Dzogchenpas nowadays have trouble accounting for context. They will either (i) read an exposition given by an adept explaining the view of equipoise and/or non-regressive wisdom, or (ii) details explaining the actuality of one’s nature as uncorrupted, etc.

They will then think either (i) or (ii) or both, apply to their current situation.

The latter, part (ii) is indeed applicable to our current situation but as a latent truth which must be recognized. Until such recognition occurs, delusion is present in the mind and samsara is in tact.

There is no samsara or nirvana for one’s nature, but there is for you, the practitioner.

Inversely, part (i) is really only applicable to seasoned adepts.

It is imperative that we remain mindful of context and nuance in Dzogchen, otherwise we run the risk of deceiving ourselves.

florin
Posts: 1129
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by florin » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am

krodha wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:13 pm
florin wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:49 pm
krodha wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:00 pm

Such a view is not incorrect. The fact that phenomena are already liberated does not mean you possess a working knowledge of this.

Vairocana:

  • At the time of vidyā, wisdom arises as the dhātu; at the time of avidyā, wisdom appears as samsara.
The idea was that the view from that passage does not represent the teaching of dzogchen.
Why not? Dzogchen as a teaching contains much nuance and context. It isn’t so cut any dry.
florin wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:49 pm
You cannot hold that view and yet consider yourself a dzogchenpa .
Which view? That the deluded mind results in samsara?

The system of Dzogchen spends a great deal of time explaining how delusion occurs and the mind becomes entrenched in suffering.

Many Dzogchenpas nowadays have trouble accounting for context. They will either (i) read an exposition given by an adept explaining the view of equipoise and/or non-regressive wisdom, or (ii) details explaining the actuality of one’s nature as uncorrupted, etc.

They will then think either (i) or (ii) or both, apply to their current situation.

The latter, part (ii) is indeed applicable to our current situation but as a latent truth which must be recognized. Until such recognition occurs, delusion is present in the mind and samsara is in tact.

There is no samsara or nirvana for one’s nature, but there is for you, the practitioner.

Inversely, part (i) is really only applicable to seasoned adepts.

It is imperative that we remain mindful of context and nuance in Dzogchen, otherwise we run the risk of deceiving ourselves.

Here we are talking about essential views of yanas and not about explanations of inner workings or processes.
It is very useful if we can make a distinction between view that represents the essence of a given teaching and classifications, categorizations and explanations of inner processes.
Indeed dzogchen talks about how delusion arises but as per the unique view of dzogchen that is nothing other than the empty energetical manifestation of our own state.Through introduction this empty ever-changing but solidified light of our experience is turned upside down. At the time of introduction this view clearly explains that the entire diversity of samsaric and nirvanic activity is a manifestation of our own state.

Again this quote is completely acceptable as the view of other yanas but is not something that is equivalent with dzogchen teachings.
"When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment."


It is a different type of recognition that we need to consider.
The fact that appearances themselves are the nature of enlightenment whether they are deluded appearances or enlightened appearances.
Whereas the quote seems to ONLY recognise the un-deluded mind as enlightenment. Which is to say enlightenment is "this" but is not "that".This is a partial view and it is the rejection of oral transmission.
This partial view as Thinley Norbu explains is not the teaching of dzogchen:
Also, it is said:
When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment.

This explanation is not the teachings of Dzogpa Chenpo or Mahasandhi,
because it is the belief of all the lower vehicles. So therefore, here, according
to the view of Dzogpa Chenpo, even though all phenomena are appearing
in the mind, it must be decided that appearance itself is naturally
enlightened Buddha.


Here below we find what is actually introduced at the time of introduction.
I think it is important to understand this idea and not replace it with a view from other yanas.

In one body and in a single lifetime, without hardships,
there can be the great ascendancy over the domain of the Original
Protector. This is so because of the greatness of obviously apparent fully
enlightened Buddhahood. In the causal vehicle, effort is made to purify
obscurations and accumulate merit over a period of many eons, and after
an extended period of time, the state of the result of Buddhahood is still
not apparent. This is not like that. This is directly being introduced to self awareness
as the nature of the Three Kayas. Then, by staying in that state,
Buddha is just now. This is called the greatness of obviously apparent fully
enlightened Buddhahood.
From this, the lower views are conquered with
splendor.


From The Tantra of Victorious Wisdom of the Three Realms
Realizing the discerning nature of one's own mind
Is fully enlightened Buddhahood.
This is also the three realms of existence.
This is also all the great elements.
"The three realms" means all sentient beings of the three realms of existence.
"The great elements" are the immeasurable elements of the three
realms of existence.
Thus, as said, that which is called the discerning wisdom of one's mind
is unmistakably knowing the nature of mind.

Thinley Norbu -A cascading waterfall of nectar.

We find a similar explanation from Rongdzompa:
Clear understanding of one's mind means understanding perfectly
the nature of one's mind. In this regard the (customary)
explanation is that when the mind is deluded this is samsara while
when it has understanding and is no longer deluded this is enlightenment
(bodhi), but this does not correspond to the Dzogchen
tradition as it is also confirmed by the lesser vehicles. So
here [where the true Dzogchen tradition is explained] one must
understand that, even though all phenomena appear as mind,
appearance itself is the nature of enlightenment of the Buddhas.


This is very clear. There is nowhere that says that because phenomena appear as mind we must consider that as samsara. When we are actually not recognising the fact that these bad experiences we have are the clear light energetical manifestations of our state, we believe that we need somehow to get involved with various purificatory rites to accumulate merit and wisdom so we can turn our state into an enlightened state at a later date, sometime in the future.This way of thinking becomes the perfect reflection of:
When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is un-deluded, that is called enlightenment.


And for the record i am not one of those that advocates that this fact of innate liberation is constantly and at all times known by us and as a consequence there is nothing to do. No.The question of capacity to recognise this fact applies. But we should be aware of something very simple.The fact that we are not in this knowledge does no make it necessary to deviate via the lower vehicles and adopt their views. It is not necessary to deviate.The capacity to recognise, stay and live in this knowledge gets developed exactly through the application of oral, symbolic and direct transmission principles of dzoghcen. And here we find many methods.

krodha
Posts: 2440
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by krodha » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:41 pm

florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
Here we are talking about essential views of yanas and not about explanations of inner workings or processes.
This is not entirely true.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
It is very useful if we can make a distinction between view that represents the essence of a given teaching and classifications, categorizations and explanations of inner processes.

Indeed dzogchen talks about how delusion arises but as per the unique view of dzogchen that is nothing other than the empty energetical manifestation of our own state.
Sure, however the point still stands that sentient beings do not properly apprehend the appearance of “their own state.”
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
Through introduction this empty ever-changing but solidified light of our experience is turned upside down. At the time of introduction this view clearly explains that the entire diversity of samsaric and nirvanic activity is a manifestation of our own state.
This does not mean samsara is pure, nor does it mean delusion regarding mind and appearance does not lead to suffering.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
Again this quote is completely acceptable as the view of other yanas but is not something that is equivalent with dzogchen teachings.

"When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment."
Again the context is lost.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
The fact that appearances themselves are the nature of enlightenment whether they are deluded appearances or enlightened appearances.
This is a special tenet of Dzogchen. Unlike other systems which consider appearances to be the afflicted expression of mind, in Dzogchen appearances are considered to be the pure display of vidyā.

Nevertheless, sentient beings do not accurately apprehend these appearances.

In Dzogchen affliction is not found in appearances, it is found in the mind.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
Whereas the quote seems to ONLY recognise the un-deluded mind as enlightenment. Which is to say enlightenment is "this" but is not "that".
Enlightenment or awakening [bodhi] is indeed something specific.

You are not differentiating between (i) mind, (ii) pristine consciousness [jñāna], and (iii) appearances.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
This is a partial view and it is the rejection of oral transmission.

This partial view as Thinley Norbu explains is not the teaching of dzogchen:

Also, it is said:
When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence. If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment.

This explanation is not the teachings of Dzogpa Chenpo or Mahasandhi, because it is the belief of all the lower vehicles. So therefore, here, according to the view of Dzogpa Chenpo, even though all phenomena are appearing in the mind, it must be decided that appearance itself is naturally enlightened Buddha.
Right, appearance is the rtsal of vidyā. That is the only point being made.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
Here below we find what is actually introduced at the time of introduction. I think it is important to understand this idea and not replace it with a view from other yanas.

In one body and in a single lifetime, without hardships, there can be the great ascendancy over the domain of the Original Protector. This is so because of the greatness of obviously apparent fully
enlightened Buddhahood. In the causal vehicle, effort is made to purify obscurations and accumulate merit over a period of many eons, and after
an extended period of time, the state of the result of Buddhahood is still
not apparent. This is not like that. This is directly being introduced to self awareness as the nature of the Three Kayas. Then, by staying in that state,
Buddha is just now. This is called the greatness of obviously apparent fully
enlightened Buddhahood. From this, the lower views are conquered with
splendor.
This is simply communicating that the path of Dzogchen is resting in the view of dharmatā from the very beginning. Even so, in Dzogchen obscurations and affliction is also exhausted and purified, just differently.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
From The Tantra of Victorious Wisdom of the Three Realms: Realizing the discerning nature of one's own mind Is fully enlightened Buddhahood. This is also the three realms of existence. This is also all the great elements. "The three realms" means all sentient beings of the three realms of existence. "The great elements" are the immeasurable elements of the three realms of existence. Thus, as said, that which is called the discerning wisdom of one's mind is unmistakably knowing the nature of mind.
This is also non-controversial.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
We find a similar explanation from Rongdzompa:
Clear understanding of one's mind means understanding perfectly the nature of one's mind. In this regard the (customary) explanation is that when the mind is deluded this is samsara while
when it has understanding and is no longer deluded this is enlightenment
(bodhi), but this does not correspond to the Dzogchen tradition as it is also confirmed by the lesser vehicles. So
here [where the true Dzogchen tradition is explained] one must understand that, even though all phenomena appear as mind, appearance itself is the nature of enlightenment of the Buddhas.
Again, this is merely clarifying that appearance is the rtsal of vidyā, and is unafflicted.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
This is very clear. There is nowhere that says that because phenomena appear as mind we must consider that as samsara. When we are actually not recognising the fact that these bad experiences we have are the clear light energetical manifestations of our state
Fundamentally this is the case, but that is just an idea until you recognize it.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
we believe that we need somehow to get involved with various purificatory rites to accumulate merit and wisdom so we can turn our state into an enlightened state at a later date
Your vidyā must be purified of mind, it is not the case that your vidyā is free from association with affliction at this time. This purification is accomplished at the time of the result, and not before then.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
sometime in the future.This way of thinking becomes the perfect reflection of:

When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence. If the mind is un-deluded, that is called enlightenment.
If you believe your experience is free from affliction and your mind pure at this time, then alright, that is a belief you are welcome to uphold. I do not share this opinion.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
And for the record i am not one of those that advocates that this fact of innate liberation is constantly and at all times known by us and as a consequence there is nothing to do. No.The question of capacity to recognise this fact applies. But we should be aware of something very simple.The fact that we are not in this knowledge does no make it necessary to deviate via the lower vehicles and adopt their views.
The only “lower yāna” view being repudiated by the quotations you have cited is the view that appearances are the afflicted display of mind.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
It is not necessary to deviate.The capacity to recognise, stay and live in this knowledge gets developed exactly through the application of oral, symbolic and direct transmission principles of dzoghcen. And here we find many methods.
No one is suggesting that you deviate, but if you do not think you are experiencing samsara at this time, or that your mind is not deluded, then you are confused.

That said, we are in agreement regarding appearances. Although it is worth noting that Dzogchen still differentiates between karmic appearances and the appearance of dharmatā, the latter is primarily used for support on the path, and the former is then at a later time, correctly apprehend as a result.

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1725
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:59 pm

krodha wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:41 pm
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
Here we are talking about essential views of yanas and not about explanations of inner workings or processes.
This is not entirely true.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
It is very useful if we can make a distinction between view that represents the essence of a given teaching and classifications, categorizations and explanations of inner processes.

Indeed dzogchen talks about how delusion arises but as per the unique view of dzogchen that is nothing other than the empty energetical manifestation of our own state.
Sure, however the point still stands that sentient beings do not properly apprehend the appearance of “their own state.”
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
Through introduction this empty ever-changing but solidified light of our experience is turned upside down. At the time of introduction this view clearly explains that the entire diversity of samsaric and nirvanic activity is a manifestation of our own state.
This does not mean samsara is pure, nor does it mean delusion regarding mind and appearance does not lead to suffering.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
Again this quote is completely acceptable as the view of other yanas but is not something that is equivalent with dzogchen teachings.

"When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment."
Again the context is lost.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
The fact that appearances themselves are the nature of enlightenment whether they are deluded appearances or enlightened appearances.
This is a special tenet of Dzogchen. Unlike other systems which consider appearances to be the afflicted expression of mind, in Dzogchen appearances are considered to be the pure display of vidyā.

Nevertheless, sentient beings do not accurately apprehend these appearances.

In Dzogchen affliction is not found in appearances, it is found in the mind.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
Whereas the quote seems to ONLY recognise the un-deluded mind as enlightenment. Which is to say enlightenment is "this" but is not "that".
Enlightenment or awakening [bodhi] is indeed something specific.

You are not differentiating between (i) mind, (ii) pristine consciousness [jñāna], and (iii) appearances.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
This is a partial view and it is the rejection of oral transmission.

This partial view as Thinley Norbu explains is not the teaching of dzogchen:

Also, it is said:
When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence. If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment.

This explanation is not the teachings of Dzogpa Chenpo or Mahasandhi, because it is the belief of all the lower vehicles. So therefore, here, according to the view of Dzogpa Chenpo, even though all phenomena are appearing in the mind, it must be decided that appearance itself is naturally enlightened Buddha.
Right, appearance is the rtsal of vidyā. That is the only point being made.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
Here below we find what is actually introduced at the time of introduction. I think it is important to understand this idea and not replace it with a view from other yanas.

In one body and in a single lifetime, without hardships, there can be the great ascendancy over the domain of the Original Protector. This is so because of the greatness of obviously apparent fully
enlightened Buddhahood. In the causal vehicle, effort is made to purify obscurations and accumulate merit over a period of many eons, and after
an extended period of time, the state of the result of Buddhahood is still
not apparent. This is not like that. This is directly being introduced to self awareness as the nature of the Three Kayas. Then, by staying in that state,
Buddha is just now. This is called the greatness of obviously apparent fully
enlightened Buddhahood. From this, the lower views are conquered with
splendor.
This is simply communicating that the path of Dzogchen is resting in the view of dharmatā from the very beginning. Even so, in Dzogchen obscurations and affliction is also exhausted and purified, just differently.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
From The Tantra of Victorious Wisdom of the Three Realms: Realizing the discerning nature of one's own mind Is fully enlightened Buddhahood. This is also the three realms of existence. This is also all the great elements. "The three realms" means all sentient beings of the three realms of existence. "The great elements" are the immeasurable elements of the three realms of existence. Thus, as said, that which is called the discerning wisdom of one's mind is unmistakably knowing the nature of mind.
This is also non-controversial.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
We find a similar explanation from Rongdzompa:
Clear understanding of one's mind means understanding perfectly the nature of one's mind. In this regard the (customary) explanation is that when the mind is deluded this is samsara while
when it has understanding and is no longer deluded this is enlightenment
(bodhi), but this does not correspond to the Dzogchen tradition as it is also confirmed by the lesser vehicles. So
here [where the true Dzogchen tradition is explained] one must understand that, even though all phenomena appear as mind, appearance itself is the nature of enlightenment of the Buddhas.
Again, this is merely clarifying that appearance is the rtsal of vidyā, and is unafflicted.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
This is very clear. There is nowhere that says that because phenomena appear as mind we must consider that as samsara. When we are actually not recognising the fact that these bad experiences we have are the clear light energetical manifestations of our state
Fundamentally this is the case, but that is just an idea until you recognize it.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
we believe that we need somehow to get involved with various purificatory rites to accumulate merit and wisdom so we can turn our state into an enlightened state at a later date
Your vidyā must be purified of mind, it is not the case that your vidyā is free from association with affliction at this time. This purification is accomplished at the time of the result, and not before then.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
sometime in the future.This way of thinking becomes the perfect reflection of:

When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence. If the mind is un-deluded, that is called enlightenment.
If you believe your experience is free from affliction and your mind pure at this time, then alright, that is a belief you are welcome to uphold. I do not share this opinion.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
And for the record i am not one of those that advocates that this fact of innate liberation is constantly and at all times known by us and as a consequence there is nothing to do. No.The question of capacity to recognise this fact applies. But we should be aware of something very simple.The fact that we are not in this knowledge does no make it necessary to deviate via the lower vehicles and adopt their views.
The only “lower yāna” view being repudiated by the quotations you have cited is the view that appearances are the afflicted display of mind.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
It is not necessary to deviate.The capacity to recognise, stay and live in this knowledge gets developed exactly through the application of oral, symbolic and direct transmission principles of dzoghcen. And here we find many methods.
No one is suggesting that you deviate, but if you do not think you are experiencing samsara at this time, or that your mind is not deluded, then you are confused.

That said, we are in agreement regarding appearances. Although it is worth noting that Dzogchen still differentiates between karmic appearances and the appearance of dharmatā, the latter is primarily used for support on the path, and the former is then at a later time, correctly apprehend as a result.
Nice. “May the dharmakaya appear as anything possible in the whole universe.”
I got my Chili Chilaya.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28507
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Malcolm » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:06 pm

florin wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:49 pm
krodha wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:00 pm
florin wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:02 am
There are lots of dzogchenpa's that hold the following view:
When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment.


Unfortunately this is completely incorrect .
Such a view is not incorrect. The fact that phenomena are already liberated does not mean you possess a working knowledge of this.

Vairocana:

  • At the time of vidyā, wisdom arises as the dhātu; at the time of avidyā, wisdom appears as samsara.

The idea was that the view from that passage does not represent the teaching of dzogchen.
You cannot hold that view and yet consider yourself a dzogchenpa .
Of course one can accept Vairocana's statement. Otherwise, there is no purpose at all in distinguishing sems and rig pa, etc. It is an entirely different statement than the one being critiqued by TNR. Here "wisdom" is ye shes, a syonym of byang chub sems.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1725
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:11 pm

May dharmata appear as the entire universe of possibilities.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by heart » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:06 pm
florin wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:49 pm
krodha wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:00 pm

Such a view is not incorrect. The fact that phenomena are already liberated does not mean you possess a working knowledge of this.

Vairocana:

  • At the time of vidyā, wisdom arises as the dhātu; at the time of avidyā, wisdom appears as samsara.

The idea was that the view from that passage does not represent the teaching of dzogchen.
You cannot hold that view and yet consider yourself a dzogchenpa .
Of course one can accept Vairocana's statement. Otherwise, there is no purpose at all in distinguishing sems and rig pa, etc. It is an entirely different statement than the one being critiqued by TNR. Here "wisdom" is ye shes, a syonym of byang chub sems.
:good:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:10 pm

Obstacles are not to be underestimated, nor the recommended methods
To overcome them.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

Wsong0000
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Wsong0000 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:15 am

Now let's get into post-enlightenment area.

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:33 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:59 pm
Nice. “May the dharmakaya appear as anything possible in the whole universe.”
You don't have to wish that...

The "correct" wish would be: May we recognise that "the dharmakaya appear[s] as anything possible in the whole universe."
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:33 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:59 pm
Nice. “May the dharmakaya appear as anything possible in the whole universe.”
You don't have to wish that...

The "correct" wish would be: May we recognise that "the dharmakaya appear[s] as anything possible in the whole universe."
Wow. More words does seem to change everything for the better.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Josef » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:42 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:56 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:33 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:59 pm
Nice. “May the dharmakaya appear as anything possible in the whole universe.”
You don't have to wish that...

The "correct" wish would be: May we recognise that "the dharmakaya appear[s] as anything possible in the whole universe."
Wow. More words does seem to change everything for the better.
Or in this case, just make the aspiration make sense.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:50 pm

Josef wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:42 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:56 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:33 am
You don't have to wish that...

The "correct" wish would be: May we recognise that "the dharmakaya appear[s] as anything possible in the whole universe."
Wow. More words does seem to change everything for the better.
Or in this case, just make the aspiration make sense.
Or just more words. But if you like it, great.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1725
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:57 pm

samantabhadra dharmata everything appears fine in Itself
I got my Chili Chilaya.

krodha
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by krodha » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:06 am

Florin,

I respected your wishes regarding not sharing restricted quotes in the public forum but there’s no way I’m continuing this discussion in the private messages. The prospect of a long drawn out discussion on pm is daunting.

I always view these interactions as collective ventures in a way, in that they engender constructive inquiry for everyone. I’d rather the forum as a whole have accesss to discussion.

In any case, I removed the quotes, and will refer to them in response but won’t post them. By the way, many, or most of the quotes lack citations indicating where they originate from.

Maybe going forward we can simply say “X” tantra communicates such-and-such and share the message of the text in question via summary without having to worry about quoting restricted material verbatim.

Unfortunately much is left to be desired in your response sans all the quotations. Your arguments are deprived of reference, but your comments capture enough of your retort to reveal some semblance of the import the quotes are intended to substantiate.

In any case I didn’t run this past you but your writing is straight forward and I removed the quotes so I don’t anticipate you taking issue with bringing the interaction back to the main forum.

I will respond later this evening when I get a chance.

- Kyle
florin wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:19 pm
Hi Kyle,

I thought long and hard about posting this in public.

Since most of the quoted material is restricted i decided to be respectful
Here is my answer.

First of all these are very complicated topics and some of the points reflected in these quotations are controversial and not easily understood.

My passion for dzogchen does not give me any license to uphold the correctness of my interventions around some of the quotes provided. So in other words passion does not equal correctness. Like many i struggle with these issues but i am trying my best to be respectful and understand these things correctly and in their proper context.
krodha wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:41 pm
This does not mean samsara is pure
There are many instances in dzoghcen tantras where both productions of samsara and nirvana are said to be understood as pure from the very beginning .
nor does it mean delusion regarding mind and appearance does not lead to suffering
.

My understanding is that if we do not valorize suffering through the view of dzogchen it remains an understanding that is of the lower yanas, where we have processes based on the subject object split and where causes and conditions play an important role in generating, across a temporal line, the result of suffering.
Nevertheless, sentient beings do not accurately apprehend these appearances.
In Dzogchen affliction is not found in appearances, it is found in the mind.
The fact that we use expressions like “deluded appearances “ does not mean that we are thinking somehow that appearances are themselves deluded in isolation from the influence of misapprehension. In the context of the dzogchen view if you posit a mind like you seem to do you fall in the view of the two truths.
You are not differentiating between (i) mind, (ii) pristine consciousness [jñāna], and (iii) appearances.
Well, prior to knowing the state of dzogchen we can make as many differentiations as we like.
Why would we need to differentiate anything while in the state of dozgchen ? When the view is transmitted there is only one truth that we need to know.
But if we don't have the capacity to know that truth at that time we are not yet at the level of dzogchen.
florin wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:45 am
We find a similar explanation from Rongdzompa:
khroda wrote:Again, this is merely clarifying that appearance is the rtsal of vidyā, and is unafflicted.
TNR made this statement to oppose the view that maintains enlightenment is ONLY when the mind is un-deluded. Since mind is seen as the energetical manifestation of our state it is not the case that the mind itself can get un-deluded ONLY, in isolation of the basis where arises from.
Your vidyā must be purified of mind
Since one rests in the knowledge of one's state what mind is there to purify ? One has already arrived at the supreme goal. At the time of knowledge mind has been completely conquered and diversity is understood as the empty clear light wisdom of our already enlightened state.In lower yanas the abyss of no-knowledge and knowledge is crossed in eons or lifetimes but here through the empowering energy of our masters transmission the abyss is crossed in no time.
it is not the case that your vidyā is free from association with affliction at this time. This purification is accomplished at the time of the result, and not before then.
At any moment one can connect with the transmission of knowledge at that instant one is a Buddha.

But mostly we are Buddhas for a second or two.
That said, we are in agreement regarding appearances. Although it is worth noting that Dzogchen still differentiates between karmic appearances and the appearance of dharmatā, the latter is primarily used for support on the path, and the former is then at a later time, correctly apprehend as a result.

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