By removing the quotes it is indeed meaningless now.krodha wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:06 amFlorin,
I respected your wishes regarding not sharing restricted quotes in the public forum but there’s no way I’m continuing this discussion in the private messages. The prospect of a long drawn out discussion on pm is daunting.
I always view these interactions as collective ventures in a way, in that they engender constructive inquiry for everyone. I’d rather the forum as a whole have accesss to discussion.
In any case, I removed the quotes, and will refer to them in response but won’t post them. By the way, many, or most of the quotes lack citations indicating where they originate from.
Maybe going forward we can simply say “X” tantra communicates such-and-such and share the message of the text in question via summary without having to worry about quoting restricted material verbatim.
Unfortunately much is left to be desired in your response sans all the quotations. Your arguments are deprived of reference, but your comments capture enough of your retort to reveal some semblance of the import the quotes are intended to substantiate.
In any case I didn’t run this past you but your writing is straight forward and I removed the quotes so I don’t anticipate you taking issue with bringing the interaction back to the main forum.
I will respond later this evening when I get a chance.
- Kyleflorin wrote:Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:19 pmHi Kyle,
I thought long and hard about posting this in public.
Since most of the quoted material is restricted i decided to be respectful
Here is my answer.
First of all these are very complicated topics and some of the points reflected in these quotations are controversial and not easily understood.
My passion for dzogchen does not give me any license to uphold the correctness of my interventions around some of the quotes provided. So in other words passion does not equal correctness. Like many i struggle with these issues but i am trying my best to be respectful and understand these things correctly and in their proper context.
There are many instances in dzoghcen tantras where both productions of samsara and nirvana are said to be understood as pure from the very beginning .
.nor does it mean delusion regarding mind and appearance does not lead to suffering
My understanding is that if we do not valorize suffering through the view of dzogchen it remains an understanding that is of the lower yanas, where we have processes based on the subject object split and where causes and conditions play an important role in generating, across a temporal line, the result of suffering.
The fact that we use expressions like “deluded appearances “ does not mean that we are thinking somehow that appearances are themselves deluded in isolation from the influence of misapprehension. In the context of the dzogchen view if you posit a mind like you seem to do you fall in the view of the two truths.Nevertheless, sentient beings do not accurately apprehend these appearances.
In Dzogchen affliction is not found in appearances, it is found in the mind.
Well, prior to knowing the state of dzogchen we can make as many differentiations as we like.You are not differentiating between (i) mind, (ii) pristine consciousness [jñāna], and (iii) appearances.
Why would we need to differentiate anything while in the state of dozgchen ? When the view is transmitted there is only one truth that we need to know.
But if we don't have the capacity to know that truth at that time we are not yet at the level of dzogchen.
TNR made this statement to oppose the view that maintains enlightenment is ONLY when the mind is un-deluded. Since mind is seen as the energetical manifestation of our state it is not the case that the mind itself can get un-deluded ONLY, in isolation of the basis where arises from.
Since one rests in the knowledge of one's state what mind is there to purify ? One has already arrived at the supreme goal. At the time of knowledge mind has been completely conquered and diversity is understood as the empty clear light wisdom of our already enlightened state.In lower yanas the abyss of no-knowledge and knowledge is crossed in eons or lifetimes but here through the empowering energy of our masters transmission the abyss is crossed in no time.Your vidyā must be purified of mind
At any moment one can connect with the transmission of knowledge at that instant one is a Buddha.it is not the case that your vidyā is free from association with affliction at this time. This purification is accomplished at the time of the result, and not before then.
But mostly we are Buddhas for a second or two.
That said, we are in agreement regarding appearances. Although it is worth noting that Dzogchen still differentiates between karmic appearances and the appearance of dharmatā, the latter is primarily used for support on the path, and the former is then at a later time, correctly apprehend as a result.
People wont understand anything and the context of these interventions.
You made a mess of it and i leave to you to sort it out.
I do not wish to continue this conversation without the support of scriptures .
My private exchange with people on these matters is always punctuated by the appropriate scriptural quotations so people can see for themselves that my statements and conclusions are not just hearsay.
To me it is very clear that when people wish to communicate privately, among other things they communicate a very simple fact, that the issues are sensitive and they wish to keep them in private due to the sensitivity of the material.
I am not comfortable even with summaries of scriptural evidence to be debated in public because implicitly they would contain ideas of oral, symbolic and direct secret transmission and people who have not had transmission can lift them and spin the s***t out them until they end up an ever-spinning ball of nothing.
Anyway it's done.