Realization

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Rick
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Realization

Post by Rick » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:04 pm

What does it mean to 'realize' something?
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Re: Realization

Post by Virgo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:29 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:04 pm
What does it mean to 'realize' something?
Can you give a little more context?

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Rick
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Re: Realization

Post by Rick » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:37 pm

Sure.

Buddhism (all schools, afaik) and most other Eastern teaching methodologies differentiate very strongly between understanding and realizing.

'Understanding' is ... understandable: an intellectual/rational comprehension. But 'realizing' is quite mysterious.

For example, consider the profound difference between:

I understand the unity of the two truths.
I realize the unity of the two truths.
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Crazywisdom
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Re: Realization

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:46 pm

Direct perception of dharmata, not inferential.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

LoveFromColorado
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Re: Realization

Post by LoveFromColorado » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:52 pm

I tend to think of understanding as something intellectual that typically is not that difficult. Many understandings can come from short teachings or even just reading books and articles. Realization, however, would be to actually directly experience that something that you understand. Something that was letters and speech becomes present in an immediate way.

Understanding involves the intellect whereas realization involves experience.

As an example, looking at pictures of the mountains and reading about them (understanding) is a very different thing from physically visiting them and seeing them firsthand up close (realization).

In my own small understanding, this is how I have perceived the difference between the two.

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Re: Realization

Post by haha » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:06 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:37 pm
For example, consider the profound difference between:

I understand the unity of the two truths.
I realize the unity of the two truths.
Former is related with the wisdom of hearing (srutamaya).
Later is related with the wisdom of meditation (bhavanamaya).

I have just related them with the three prajnas—hearing, contemplating and meditation.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Re: Realization

Post by Rick » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:34 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:46 pm
Direct perception of dharmata, not inferential.
Let's say I have a direct perception of impermanence by watching/experiencing a thought arise and decay.

It would not be correct to say "I have realized impermanence" right? That would take many such direct perceptions + something else, mysterious, a kind of transformation of my body-brain-mind's apprehension of the fleeting nature of phenomena.

It's this spin on realization that I'm asking about here: X has (fully) realized this or that teaching, there is no 'coming back' from what has been realized.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Rick
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Re: Realization

Post by Rick » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:44 pm

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:52 pm
Understanding involves the intellect whereas realization involves experience.
Makes sense ... though the act of intellectual understanding is also an experience, right?
haha wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:06 pm
Former is related with the wisdom of hearing (srutamaya).
Later is related with the wisdom of meditation (bhavanamaya).
I don't know these terms, but will look them up.
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Re: Realization

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:51 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:34 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:46 pm
Direct perception of dharmata, not inferential.
Let's say I have a direct perception of impermanence by watching/experiencing a thought arise and decay.

It would not be correct to say "I have realized impermanence" right? That would take many such direct perceptions + something else, mysterious, a kind of transformation of my body-brain-mind's apprehension of the fleeting nature of phenomena.

It's this spin on realization that I'm asking about here: X has (fully) realized this or that teaching, there is no 'coming back' from what has been realized.
You see a white cup. You realize it’s white. The day turns to night. You realize the day is impermanent. You were young and got old. You realize life is impermanent. You look within during yoga practice, you see light. You see it is not material or made
Of parts. Not arising from some location based on various conditions. You realize the dharmata. Does that mean you are always in such direct realization? Only if you really remain that way. You also look up and are not looking at the cup. Sometimes you forget what time it is or your lost in thought. But there is no spin. It’s a basic definition of direct perception. Of course you cannot directly perceive atoms and that’s ok. You can directly perceive dharmata with yogic methods.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

LoveFromColorado
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Re: Realization

Post by LoveFromColorado » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:38 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:44 pm
LoveFromColorado wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:52 pm
Understanding involves the intellect whereas realization involves experience.
Makes sense ... though the act of intellectual understanding is also an experience, right?
Understanding is an experience but I would say it is substantially of a different type than what I mean colloquially by "experience" as one intellectually "experiences" study and learning about something vs. directly "experiencing" something when you directly encounter it. To be intellectual about it, they are two different types of engagement with a subject.

Of course, I suppose a prodigy would be able to do both at the same time (learn about something and realize it immediately) in some cases. I'm sure for fairly simple things we do this all the time (for example, I understand that the sun is crazy hot but don't need to go take a cosmic stroll through its corona to realize it).

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Re: Realization

Post by Rick » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:35 pm

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:38 pm
... what I mean colloquially by "experience" as one intellectually "experiences" study and learning about something vs. directly "experiencing" something when you directly encounter it.
To me, the experience of a thought *is* a direct experience.

Let's say you experience a tree by walking up to it and touching it. What does that mean? That you directly experience sensory objects (colors/shapes, felt textures, smells, etc.) and name this experience: tree.

Now let's say you experience the thought of a tree while sitting in your room and thinking of this tree you walked up to. What does that mean? That you directly experience mental objects (internal thoughts and imagined sensory inputs) and name it: tree.

These are both direct experiences of something that you name tree, no?
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Rick
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Re: Realization

Post by Rick » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:46 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:51 pm
You realize the dharmata. Does that mean you are always in such direct realization? Only if you really remain that way.
Afaiu this would mean that one could realize emptiness (authentically, not faux) during a retreat ... and then lose all trace of this realization afterwards, i.e. "be none the wiser for it."

Is that what you are saying? If so, this is a very different vibe of 'realization' than I have run into: an abiding shift in one's sense of reality.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

LoveFromColorado
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Re: Realization

Post by LoveFromColorado » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:39 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:35 pm
These are both direct experiences of something that you name tree, no?
Indeed, but the direct of experience of engaging with a tree would be different than reading and thinking about a tree before ever encountering one (or perhaps arguably even afterwards). The immediate tactile sensation and the anticipation of or memory about what touching the tree is like would be substantially different, at least to me.

I can also think of some memorable concerts, for example. I can recall them quite well but the experience of being in the sound waves vs. thinking of what it was like are two different forms of experience for sure (again, to me).

When we talk about realizing things such as emptiness, of course, that can stay with you when you bring it to mind as it is ever-present. Still, reading about emptiness would be different than experiencing emptiness in an immediate sense (again, to me and my small understanding).

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Re: Realization

Post by Rick » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:50 am

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:39 pm
Rick wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:35 pm
These are both direct experiences of something that you name tree, no?
Indeed, but the direct of experience of engaging with a tree would be different than reading and thinking about a tree before ever encountering one (or perhaps arguably even afterwards). The immediate tactile sensation and the anticipation of or memory about what touching the tree is like would be substantially different, at least to me.
Gotcha. The appearance is clearly different. But the reality ... ?
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Re: Realization

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:34 am

Rick wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:46 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:51 pm
You realize the dharmata. Does that mean you are always in such direct realization? Only if you really remain that way.
Afaiu this would mean that one could realize emptiness (authentically, not faux) during a retreat ... and then lose all trace of this realization afterwards, i.e. "be none the wiser for it."

Is that what you are saying? If so, this is a very different vibe of 'realization' than I have run into: an abiding shift in one's sense of reality.
Well, yes you can be in such perception in retreat and then rejoin society and get caught up in deluded perceptions. A vidyadhara is someone who has habituated to the perception of dharmata so that it is unbroken waking or sleeping.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Realization

Post by PeterC » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:25 am

Rick wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:37 pm
Sure.

Buddhism (all schools, afaik) and most other Eastern teaching methodologies differentiate very strongly between understanding and realizing.

'Understanding' is ... understandable: an intellectual/rational comprehension. But 'realizing' is quite mysterious.

For example, consider the profound difference between:

I understand the unity of the two truths.
I realize the unity of the two truths.
You are probably asking the wrong question. You would have seen both words used as translations of other terms. The usage of these two words will not be consistent across translators - they would have considered the meaning of the original term (which itself may have been in translation - Chinese or Tibetan from Sanskrit, for instance), and then picked a term in English that they feel is close to it, based again on their understanding of that term in English, which will differ across speakers.

So you're trying to infer semantics on different translators' translations of different translators' translations. Not likely to be helpful. You would probably gain more by looking at what these terms translate and understanding the meaning of those words. One of the marks of a good translator is that they are very transparent about how they render technical terms. That way you know what they're doing, whether or not you agree with their choices.

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Rick
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Re: Realization

Post by Rick » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:33 pm

Yeah, good point about the translation ... it does seem like it could be a semantic thingie.

I'm'a ask my teacher what he means by realization so I don't get myself tangled up in conceptual knots.

Thanks, everyone! :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

LoveFromColorado
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Re: Realization

Post by LoveFromColorado » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:55 pm

I am reading The Magic of Awareness by Anam Thubten. As is typical, his simple and straightforward style tends to be very clear and profound (at least to me).

Something I read this morning struck me in light of this conversation on realization:
Maybe that is why Buddha explained the truth with language of negation. That is also why he said the truth is too subtle to teach. Up to now the human mind has the propensity to often miss what is subtle and profound. It tends to be attracted to what is coarse. When it contemplates higher realities, it tries to figure them our through beliefs and images. So this notion of luminous mind is very subtle. It can never be realized by theorizing about it or believing in it.

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Re: Realization

Post by Bundokji » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:08 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:34 pm
Let's say I have a direct perception of impermanence by watching/experiencing a thought arise and decay.

It would not be correct to say "I have realized impermanence" right? That would take many such direct perceptions + something else, mysterious, a kind of transformation of my body-brain-mind's apprehension of the fleeting nature of phenomena.

It's this spin on realization that I'm asking about here: X has (fully) realized this or that teaching, there is no 'coming back' from what has been realized.
You cannot experience impermanence directly, you can only infer it. When you think that you are perceiving impermanence, what you are perceiving is your own delusion.

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Re: Realization

Post by florin » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:41 pm

LoveFromColorado wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:55 pm
I am reading The Magic of Awareness by Anam Thubten. As is typical, his simple and straightforward style tends to be very clear and profound (at least to me).

Something I read this morning struck me in light of this conversation on realization:
Maybe that is why Buddha explained the truth with language of negation. That is also why he said the truth is too subtle to teach. Up to now the human mind has the propensity to often miss what is subtle and profound. It tends to be attracted to what is coarse. When it contemplates higher realities, it tries to figure them our through beliefs and images. So this notion of luminous mind is very subtle. It can never be realized by theorizing about it or believing in it.
Subtle mind-coarse mind.
Is that the realization that dozgchen is concerned with ?
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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