Realization

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heart
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Re: Realization

Post by heart » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:21 am

florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:11 am
heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:05 am
For Florin.

/magnus
Sure, but that is not dzogchen yet Magnus
Of course it is Florin. :smile: The seven mind trainings are only found in the Vima Nyingtik, nowhere else.

/magnus
Last edited by heart on Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Realization

Post by heart » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:00 am

florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:09 am
heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:03 am
florin wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:27 pm
Yes i am just a baby.
You never dissapoint Magnus. :smile:
You are hardly a baby Florin. Primordial purity and impermanence are closely connected and because of that contemplating impermanence is very important in Dzogchen.

/magnus
I would say impermanence "happens" before dzogchen. It Is when we conventionally have "things" that appear to arise, decay and pass out of existence.
Impermanence is something that is observed when one hasn't yet understood the real "essence" of one's state.
If you understand the meaning of selfliberation, the natural dance of appearing and disappearing thoughts, then you also understand impermanence.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

florin
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Re: Realization

Post by florin » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:34 am

heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:00 am
florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:09 am
heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:03 am


You are hardly a baby Florin. Primordial purity and impermanence are closely connected and because of that contemplating impermanence is very important in Dzogchen.

/magnus
I would say impermanence "happens" before dzogchen. It Is when we conventionally have "things" that appear to arise, decay and pass out of existence.
Impermanence is something that is observed when one hasn't yet understood the real "essence" of one's state.
If you understand the meaning of selfliberation, the natural dance of appearing and disappearing thoughts, then you also understand impermanence.

/magnus
Actually ChNNR is very specific at what point we can start calling ourselves dzogchen practitioners.
He explains that when we are able to integrate our presence with appearances we will begin to understand self-liberation. At that point we can begin to understand dzogchen.
However impermanence in that list is just a preliminary where we work with our mind and no yet dzogchen.

heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:21 am
florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:11 am
heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:05 am
For Florin.

/magnus
Sure, but that is not dzogchen yet Magnus
Of course it is Florin. :smile: The seven mind trainings are only found in the Vima Nyingtik, nowhere else.

/magnus
Do you mean to say that this way of presenting the seven mind trainings can only be found in VN ?

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heart
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Re: Realization

Post by heart » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:49 am

florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:34 am
heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:00 am
florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:09 am


I would say impermanence "happens" before dzogchen. It Is when we conventionally have "things" that appear to arise, decay and pass out of existence.
Impermanence is something that is observed when one hasn't yet understood the real "essence" of one's state.
If you understand the meaning of selfliberation, the natural dance of appearing and disappearing thoughts, then you also understand impermanence.

/magnus
Actually ChNNR is very specific at what point we can start calling ourselves dzogchen practitioners.
He explains that when we are able to integrate our presence with appearances we will begin to understand self-liberation. At that point we can begin to understand dzogchen.
However impermanence in that list is just a preliminary where we work with our mind and no yet dzogchen.

Do you mean to say that this way of presenting the seven mind trainings can only be found in VN ?
When you understand self-liberation you also understand impermanence, it is quite obvious. If you always put label on teachings such as "preliminary", "lower" and so on you are still lost in the gradual approach, this is also quite obvious.

Yes, the seven mind trainings exist only in the Vima Nyingtik in this form.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

florin
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Re: Realization

Post by florin » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:32 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:49 am
florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:34 am
heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:00 am


If you understand the meaning of selfliberation, the natural dance of appearing and disappearing thoughts, then you also understand impermanence.

/magnus
Actually ChNNR is very specific at what point we can start calling ourselves dzogchen practitioners.
He explains that when we are able to integrate our presence with appearances we will begin to understand self-liberation. At that point we can begin to understand dzogchen.
However impermanence in that list is just a preliminary where we work with our mind and no yet dzogchen.

Do you mean to say that this way of presenting the seven mind trainings can only be found in VN ?
When you understand self-liberation you also understand impermanence, it is quite obvious. If you always put label on teachings such as "preliminary", "lower" and so on you are still lost in the gradual approach, this is also quite obvious.

Yes, the seven mind trainings exist only in the Vima Nyingtik in this form.

/magnus
We need to very clearly differentiate between preliminaries to dzogchen in the case where we want to enter Ati in a gradual manner and dzogchen "preliminaries" where the practitioner aims to connect with the natural state within the limits of a single session of practice.
The latter ones are not preliminaries per se but they are the main part of the practice for developing capacity to connect and continue in the primordial state within one single sitting. Here it is presumed that the practitioner has already received transmission and as a consequence one starts the session within the context of dzogchen and continues with the methods that develop capacity to stay in that context of dzogchen.

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Re: Realization

Post by heart » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:42 pm

florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:32 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:49 am
florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:34 am


Actually ChNNR is very specific at what point we can start calling ourselves dzogchen practitioners.
He explains that when we are able to integrate our presence with appearances we will begin to understand self-liberation. At that point we can begin to understand dzogchen.
However impermanence in that list is just a preliminary where we work with our mind and no yet dzogchen.

Do you mean to say that this way of presenting the seven mind trainings can only be found in VN ?
When you understand self-liberation you also understand impermanence, it is quite obvious. If you always put label on teachings such as "preliminary", "lower" and so on you are still lost in the gradual approach, this is also quite obvious.

Yes, the seven mind trainings exist only in the Vima Nyingtik in this form.

/magnus
We need to very clearly differentiate between preliminaries to dzogchen in the case where we want to enter Ati in a gradual manner and dzogchen "preliminaries" where the practitioner aims to connect with the natural state within the limits of a single session of practice.
The latter ones are not preliminaries per se but they are the main part of the practice for developing capacity to connect and continue in the primordial state within one single sitting. Here it is presumed that the practitioner has already received transmission and as a consequence one starts the session within the context of dzogchen and continues with the methods that develop capacity to stay in that context of dzogchen.
Yes, it seems very important to keep up the concept of the gradual approach for you, that is fine.

However, the three or four modes of self-liberation belong to the third statement by Garab Dorje. That self-liberation is closely connected with impermanence.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... liberation

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Realization

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:48 pm

florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:09 am
heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:03 am
florin wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:27 pm
Yes i am just a baby.
You never dissapoint Magnus. :smile:
You are hardly a baby Florin. Primordial purity and impermanence are closely connected and because of that contemplating impermanence is very important in Dzogchen.

/magnus
I would say impermanence "happens" before dzogchen. It Is when we conventionally have "things" that appear to arise, decay and pass out of existence.
Impermanence is something that is observed when one hasn't yet understood the real "essence" of one's state.

"When my nature is not understood and the phenomena that manifest from me become the object of judgement, desire and attachment give rise to the creation of concrete vision that is impermanent and destined to vanish like a magical apparition, and one becomes like a blind man who does not know what is happening."

"Self-arising wisdom, the essence of all the Buddhas, exists prior to the division of samsara and nirvana and is beyond the limits of transmigration and liberation. As it transcends the four conceptual limits and is intrinsically pure, this original condition is the uncreated nature of existence that has always existed, the ultimate nature of all phenomena. It cannot be identified with a stable and eternal substance allowing the assertion "It is thus!" and is utterly free of all the defects of dualistic thought, which is only capable of referring to an object other than itself. It is given the name ineffable and inconceivable "base of primordial purity"
KG
These passages do not mean that phenomena are not impermanent. Anything that manifests is a product, and any product is impermanent, like sound.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Realization

Post by Rick » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:15 pm

kirtu wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:36 am
Realizations can arise out of intellectual/contemplative experiences (generally subsumed under analytic meditation).
Thanks, kirtu! Quick followup:

What 'counts' as analytic meditation? Is it formalized ... or are off-the-cushion types of analysis (such as reading/contemplating the Mulamadhyamakakarika) considered valid forms of analytic meditation?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Realization

Post by Rick » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:54 am
Understanding here refers to go ba, which in Tibetan means "intellectual understanding." Experience is "nyams," and experience comes from applying in practice that which one has understood intellectually. That results in realization [rtogs pa]. Practice in Tibetan is "nyams len," "to take into experience.
Nice and clear, thanks.

This is from Keith Dowman, in Natural Perfection, Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen:

"In the Dzogchen view there is no prescriptive practise in which to engage in order to attain rigpa, and there is nothing that we can do to induce that view. Dzogchen 'nonmeditation' is a spontaneous noncontingent continuity—a timeless synchronistic awareness."

Assuming it is true that there is no prescriptive practice to attain rigpa, what does 'nyams len' consist of?

Also, now that I've brought it up, what in livin' tarnation does this mean :

"Dzogchen 'nonmeditation' is a spontaneous noncontingent continuity—a timeless synchronistic awareness."

?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Malcolm
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Re: Realization

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:36 pm

Rick wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:25 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:54 am
Understanding here refers to go ba, which in Tibetan means "intellectual understanding." Experience is "nyams," and experience comes from applying in practice that which one has understood intellectually. That results in realization [rtogs pa]. Practice in Tibetan is "nyams len," "to take into experience.
Nice and clear, thanks.

This is from Keith Dowman, in Natural Perfection, Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen:

"In the Dzogchen view there is no prescriptive practise in which to engage in order to attain rigpa, and there is nothing that we can do to induce that view. Dzogchen 'nonmeditation' is a spontaneous noncontingent continuity—a timeless synchronistic awareness."

Assuming it is true that there is no prescriptive practice to attain rigpa, what does 'nyams len' consist of?

Also, now that I've brought it up, what in livin' tarnation does this mean :

"Dzogchen 'nonmeditation' is a spontaneous noncontingent continuity—a timeless synchronistic awareness."
Is this his commentary, or is this his translation of Longchenpa. If so, which chapter is this from.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Realization

Post by Rick » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:36 pm
Is this his commentary, or is this his translation of Longchenpa. If so, which chapter is this from.
It's his commentary, from Basic Assumptions in the Translator's Introduction to the Longchenpa text.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Realization

Post by florin » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:48 pm
florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:09 am
heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:03 am


You are hardly a baby Florin. Primordial purity and impermanence are closely connected and because of that contemplating impermanence is very important in Dzogchen.

/magnus
I would say impermanence "happens" before dzogchen. It Is when we conventionally have "things" that appear to arise, decay and pass out of existence.
Impermanence is something that is observed when one hasn't yet understood the real "essence" of one's state.

"When my nature is not understood and the phenomena that manifest from me become the object of judgement, desire and attachment give rise to the creation of concrete vision that is impermanent and destined to vanish like a magical apparition, and one becomes like a blind man who does not know what is happening."

"Self-arising wisdom, the essence of all the Buddhas, exists prior to the division of samsara and nirvana and is beyond the limits of transmigration and liberation. As it transcends the four conceptual limits and is intrinsically pure, this original condition is the uncreated nature of existence that has always existed, the ultimate nature of all phenomena. It cannot be identified with a stable and eternal substance allowing the assertion "It is thus!" and is utterly free of all the defects of dualistic thought, which is only capable of referring to an object other than itself. It is given the name ineffable and inconceivable "base of primordial purity"
KG
These passages do not mean that phenomena are not impermanent. Anything that manifests is a product, and any product is impermanent, like sound.

Nobody maintained that they are not impermanent.
That is not why i submitted that quote.

When we have a concrete vision due to misunderstanding, that will be impermanent. Although concrete and separate we are still able to have an understanding of its arising and passing.We are still able to observe impermanence from the standpoint of someone who is separate from the display. But while in the dzogchen state what can be said about the display since the entire diversity of manifestations is seen and understood as the pure display of wisdom ?
Is wisdom impermanent ?
I thought that it is very clear already and not up to debate that wisdom is understood to be beyond the four conceptual limits.

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Malcolm
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Re: Realization

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:29 pm

florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:08 pm


When we have a concrete vision due to misunderstanding, that will be impermanent.
So vision dues to understanding will be permanent?


Although concrete and separate we are still able to have an understanding of its arising and passing.We are still able to observe impermanence from the standpoint of someone who is separate from the display. But while in the dzogchen state what can be said about the display since the entire diversity of manifestations is seen and understood as the pure display of wisdom ?
Are those manifestations permanent or impermanent?

Is wisdom impermanent ?
I thought that it is very clear already and not up to debate that wisdom is understood to be beyond the four conceptual limits.
If the manifestations are impermanent, how can wisdom be permanent? A permanent entity (wisdom) can not give rise to an impermanent manifestation (display). Further, if wisdom is free from the four extremes, also its product, the display, must be free from the four extremes, not established in any way, being itself similar to an illusion or a mirage.

Further, you make it sound as if there are two phases: being in the dzogchen state and not being in the dzogchen state. Since there is nothing that is not in the dzogchen state, how can there be a phase of being in the dzogchen state and not being in the dzogchen state?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Realization

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:37 pm

Impermenance is the very nature of all phenomena. Of course this does not change when we are in rigpa. Quite the opposite (as Magnus already said).

florin
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Re: Realization

Post by florin » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:29 pm
So vision dues to understanding will be permanent?
I dind't mean to say that the consequence of misunderstanding is impermanence.
It should be read the concrete vision that possesses the characteristic of impermanence.
Although concrete and separate we are still able to have an understanding of its arising and passing.We are still able to observe impermanence from the standpoint of someone who is separate from the display. But while in the dzogchen state what can be said about the display since the entire diversity of manifestations is seen and understood as the pure display of wisdom ?
Are those manifestations permanent or impermanent?
I thought it was clear from the quote that self-arising wisdom is prior to everything and transcends the four extremes.
Is wisdom impermanent ?
I thought that it is very clear already and not up to debate that wisdom is understood to be beyond the four conceptual limits.
If the manifestations are impermanent, how can wisdom be permanent? A permanent entity (wisdom) can not give rise to an impermanent manifestation (display). Further, if wisdom is free from the four extremes, also its product, the display, must be free from the four extremes, not established in any way, being itself similar to an illusion or a mirage.
Who said that manifestations are separate from wisdom and that wisdom is permanent?
At what point did i maintain that there is a division between wisdom and display ?
I said very clearly that the manifestations are understood and recognized as the wisdom display.

When an idea is presented where the ultimate value of manifestations becomes the wisdom of dzogchen, the idea of manifestations at that point is left behind.

Of course, the texts speak of diversity, multiplicity, etc but since they have the same essence as the state where they appear to arise from we dont have manifestations that exist in their own right that are somehow separate from the state.

Further, you make it sound as if there are two phases: being in the dzogchen state and not being in the dzogchen state. Since there is nothing that is not in the dzogchen state, how can there be a phase of being in the dzogchen state and not being in the dzogchen state?
You dont usually make statements like that.
Is this a trap ? :smile:

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Re: Realization

Post by florin » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:43 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:37 pm
Impermenance is the very nature of all phenomena. Of course this does not change when we are in rigpa. Quite the opposite (as Magnus already said).
Yeah, not quite.
In dzogchen is totally different.
Your primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas.

The Kunjed Gyalpo says:" I am the root of all dharmas.
I am the nature of all dharmas, of all existence.
Apart from my nature, nothing exists"

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Re: Realization

Post by heart » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:04 pm

florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:37 pm
Impermenance is the very nature of all phenomena. Of course this does not change when we are in rigpa. Quite the opposite (as Magnus already said).
Yeah, not quite.
In dzogchen is totally different.
Your primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas.

The Kunjed Gyalpo says:" I am the root of all dharmas.
I am the nature of all dharmas, of all existence.
Apart from my nature, nothing exists"
You do understand that primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas also right now? If something would be actually permanent it would not be primordially pure, so impermanence is pointing directly at the primordially pure nature.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

florin
Posts: 1129
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Realization

Post by florin » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:15 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:04 pm
florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:37 pm
Impermenance is the very nature of all phenomena. Of course this does not change when we are in rigpa. Quite the opposite (as Magnus already said).
Yeah, not quite.
In dzogchen is totally different.
Your primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas.

The Kunjed Gyalpo says:" I am the root of all dharmas.
I am the nature of all dharmas, of all existence.
Apart from my nature, nothing exists"
You do understand that primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas also right now? If something would be actually permanent it would not be primordially pure, so impermanence is pointing directly at the primordially pure nature.

/magnus
Maybe this is difficult after all.

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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Realization

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:38 am

florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:43 pm
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:37 pm
Impermenance is the very nature of all phenomena. Of course this does not change when we are in rigpa. Quite the opposite (as Magnus already said).
Yeah, not quite.
In dzogchen is totally different.
Your primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas.

The Kunjed Gyalpo says:" I am the root of all dharmas.
I am the nature of all dharmas, of all existence.
Apart from my nature, nothing exists"
I know the Kunjed Gyalpo. I also received the oral instructions on it. That's why I think you tend to fall into some kind of eternalistic trap.

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Sherab
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Re: Realization

Post by Sherab » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:34 am

florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:15 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:04 pm
florin wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:43 pm


Yeah, not quite.
In dzogchen is totally different.
Your primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas.

The Kunjed Gyalpo says:" I am the root of all dharmas.
I am the nature of all dharmas, of all existence.
Apart from my nature, nothing exists"
You do understand that primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas also right now? If something would be actually permanent it would not be primordially pure, so impermanence is pointing directly at the primordially pure nature.

/magnus
Maybe this is difficult after all.
It is difficult. Not maybe.

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