Of course it is Florin. The seven mind trainings are only found in the Vima Nyingtik, nowhere else.
/magnus
Of course it is Florin. The seven mind trainings are only found in the Vima Nyingtik, nowhere else.
If you understand the meaning of selfliberation, the natural dance of appearing and disappearing thoughts, then you also understand impermanence.florin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:09 amI would say impermanence "happens" before dzogchen. It Is when we conventionally have "things" that appear to arise, decay and pass out of existence.
Impermanence is something that is observed when one hasn't yet understood the real "essence" of one's state.
Actually ChNNR is very specific at what point we can start calling ourselves dzogchen practitioners.heart wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:00 amIf you understand the meaning of selfliberation, the natural dance of appearing and disappearing thoughts, then you also understand impermanence.
/magnus
Do you mean to say that this way of presenting the seven mind trainings can only be found in VN ?
When you understand self-liberation you also understand impermanence, it is quite obvious. If you always put label on teachings such as "preliminary", "lower" and so on you are still lost in the gradual approach, this is also quite obvious.florin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:34 amActually ChNNR is very specific at what point we can start calling ourselves dzogchen practitioners.
He explains that when we are able to integrate our presence with appearances we will begin to understand self-liberation. At that point we can begin to understand dzogchen.
However impermanence in that list is just a preliminary where we work with our mind and no yet dzogchen.
Do you mean to say that this way of presenting the seven mind trainings can only be found in VN ?
We need to very clearly differentiate between preliminaries to dzogchen in the case where we want to enter Ati in a gradual manner and dzogchen "preliminaries" where the practitioner aims to connect with the natural state within the limits of a single session of practice.heart wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:49 amWhen you understand self-liberation you also understand impermanence, it is quite obvious. If you always put label on teachings such as "preliminary", "lower" and so on you are still lost in the gradual approach, this is also quite obvious.florin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:34 amActually ChNNR is very specific at what point we can start calling ourselves dzogchen practitioners.
He explains that when we are able to integrate our presence with appearances we will begin to understand self-liberation. At that point we can begin to understand dzogchen.
However impermanence in that list is just a preliminary where we work with our mind and no yet dzogchen.
Do you mean to say that this way of presenting the seven mind trainings can only be found in VN ?
Yes, the seven mind trainings exist only in the Vima Nyingtik in this form.
/magnus
Yes, it seems very important to keep up the concept of the gradual approach for you, that is fine.florin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:32 pmWe need to very clearly differentiate between preliminaries to dzogchen in the case where we want to enter Ati in a gradual manner and dzogchen "preliminaries" where the practitioner aims to connect with the natural state within the limits of a single session of practice.heart wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:49 amWhen you understand self-liberation you also understand impermanence, it is quite obvious. If you always put label on teachings such as "preliminary", "lower" and so on you are still lost in the gradual approach, this is also quite obvious.florin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:34 am
Actually ChNNR is very specific at what point we can start calling ourselves dzogchen practitioners.
He explains that when we are able to integrate our presence with appearances we will begin to understand self-liberation. At that point we can begin to understand dzogchen.
However impermanence in that list is just a preliminary where we work with our mind and no yet dzogchen.
Do you mean to say that this way of presenting the seven mind trainings can only be found in VN ?
Yes, the seven mind trainings exist only in the Vima Nyingtik in this form.
/magnus
The latter ones are not preliminaries per se but they are the main part of the practice for developing capacity to connect and continue in the primordial state within one single sitting. Here it is presumed that the practitioner has already received transmission and as a consequence one starts the session within the context of dzogchen and continues with the methods that develop capacity to stay in that context of dzogchen.
These passages do not mean that phenomena are not impermanent. Anything that manifests is a product, and any product is impermanent, like sound.florin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:09 amI would say impermanence "happens" before dzogchen. It Is when we conventionally have "things" that appear to arise, decay and pass out of existence.
Impermanence is something that is observed when one hasn't yet understood the real "essence" of one's state.
"When my nature is not understood and the phenomena that manifest from me become the object of judgement, desire and attachment give rise to the creation of concrete vision that is impermanent and destined to vanish like a magical apparition, and one becomes like a blind man who does not know what is happening."
"Self-arising wisdom, the essence of all the Buddhas, exists prior to the division of samsara and nirvana and is beyond the limits of transmigration and liberation. As it transcends the four conceptual limits and is intrinsically pure, this original condition is the uncreated nature of existence that has always existed, the ultimate nature of all phenomena. It cannot be identified with a stable and eternal substance allowing the assertion "It is thus!" and is utterly free of all the defects of dualistic thought, which is only capable of referring to an object other than itself. It is given the name ineffable and inconceivable "base of primordial purity" KG
Thanks, kirtu! Quick followup:
Nice and clear, thanks.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:54 am Understanding here refers to go ba, which in Tibetan means "intellectual understanding." Experience is "nyams," and experience comes from applying in practice that which one has understood intellectually. That results in realization [rtogs pa]. Practice in Tibetan is "nyams len," "to take into experience.
Is this his commentary, or is this his translation of Longchenpa. If so, which chapter is this from.Rick wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:25 pmNice and clear, thanks.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:54 am Understanding here refers to go ba, which in Tibetan means "intellectual understanding." Experience is "nyams," and experience comes from applying in practice that which one has understood intellectually. That results in realization [rtogs pa]. Practice in Tibetan is "nyams len," "to take into experience.
This is from Keith Dowman, in Natural Perfection, Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen:
"In the Dzogchen view there is no prescriptive practise in which to engage in order to attain rigpa, and there is nothing that we can do to induce that view. Dzogchen 'nonmeditation' is a spontaneous noncontingent continuity—a timeless synchronistic awareness."
Assuming it is true that there is no prescriptive practice to attain rigpa, what does 'nyams len' consist of?
Also, now that I've brought it up, what in livin' tarnation does this mean :
"Dzogchen 'nonmeditation' is a spontaneous noncontingent continuity—a timeless synchronistic awareness."
It's his commentary, from Basic Assumptions in the Translator's Introduction to the Longchenpa text.
Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:48 pmThese passages do not mean that phenomena are not impermanent. Anything that manifests is a product, and any product is impermanent, like sound.florin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:09 amI would say impermanence "happens" before dzogchen. It Is when we conventionally have "things" that appear to arise, decay and pass out of existence.
Impermanence is something that is observed when one hasn't yet understood the real "essence" of one's state.
"When my nature is not understood and the phenomena that manifest from me become the object of judgement, desire and attachment give rise to the creation of concrete vision that is impermanent and destined to vanish like a magical apparition, and one becomes like a blind man who does not know what is happening."
"Self-arising wisdom, the essence of all the Buddhas, exists prior to the division of samsara and nirvana and is beyond the limits of transmigration and liberation. As it transcends the four conceptual limits and is intrinsically pure, this original condition is the uncreated nature of existence that has always existed, the ultimate nature of all phenomena. It cannot be identified with a stable and eternal substance allowing the assertion "It is thus!" and is utterly free of all the defects of dualistic thought, which is only capable of referring to an object other than itself. It is given the name ineffable and inconceivable "base of primordial purity" KG
So vision dues to understanding will be permanent?
Are those manifestations permanent or impermanent?Although concrete and separate we are still able to have an understanding of its arising and passing.We are still able to observe impermanence from the standpoint of someone who is separate from the display. But while in the dzogchen state what can be said about the display since the entire diversity of manifestations is seen and understood as the pure display of wisdom ?
If the manifestations are impermanent, how can wisdom be permanent? A permanent entity (wisdom) can not give rise to an impermanent manifestation (display). Further, if wisdom is free from the four extremes, also its product, the display, must be free from the four extremes, not established in any way, being itself similar to an illusion or a mirage.Is wisdom impermanent ?
I thought that it is very clear already and not up to debate that wisdom is understood to be beyond the four conceptual limits.
I dind't mean to say that the consequence of misunderstanding is impermanence.
I thought it was clear from the quote that self-arising wisdom is prior to everything and transcends the four extremes.Are those manifestations permanent or impermanent?Although concrete and separate we are still able to have an understanding of its arising and passing.We are still able to observe impermanence from the standpoint of someone who is separate from the display. But while in the dzogchen state what can be said about the display since the entire diversity of manifestations is seen and understood as the pure display of wisdom ?
Who said that manifestations are separate from wisdom and that wisdom is permanent?If the manifestations are impermanent, how can wisdom be permanent? A permanent entity (wisdom) can not give rise to an impermanent manifestation (display). Further, if wisdom is free from the four extremes, also its product, the display, must be free from the four extremes, not established in any way, being itself similar to an illusion or a mirage.Is wisdom impermanent ?
I thought that it is very clear already and not up to debate that wisdom is understood to be beyond the four conceptual limits.
You dont usually make statements like that.Further, you make it sound as if there are two phases: being in the dzogchen state and not being in the dzogchen state. Since there is nothing that is not in the dzogchen state, how can there be a phase of being in the dzogchen state and not being in the dzogchen state?
Yeah, not quite.Karma_Yeshe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:37 pm Impermenance is the very nature of all phenomena. Of course this does not change when we are in rigpa. Quite the opposite (as Magnus already said).
You do understand that primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas also right now? If something would be actually permanent it would not be primordially pure, so impermanence is pointing directly at the primordially pure nature.florin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:43 pmYeah, not quite.Karma_Yeshe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:37 pm Impermenance is the very nature of all phenomena. Of course this does not change when we are in rigpa. Quite the opposite (as Magnus already said).
In dzogchen is totally different.
Your primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas.
The Kunjed Gyalpo says:" I am the root of all dharmas.
I am the nature of all dharmas, of all existence.
Apart from my nature, nothing exists"
Maybe this is difficult after all.heart wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:04 pmYou do understand that primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas also right now? If something would be actually permanent it would not be primordially pure, so impermanence is pointing directly at the primordially pure nature.florin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:43 pmYeah, not quite.Karma_Yeshe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:37 pm Impermenance is the very nature of all phenomena. Of course this does not change when we are in rigpa. Quite the opposite (as Magnus already said).
In dzogchen is totally different.
Your primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas.
The Kunjed Gyalpo says:" I am the root of all dharmas.
I am the nature of all dharmas, of all existence.
Apart from my nature, nothing exists"
/magnus
I know the Kunjed Gyalpo. I also received the oral instructions on it. That's why I think you tend to fall into some kind of eternalistic trap.florin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:43 pmYeah, not quite.Karma_Yeshe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:37 pm Impermenance is the very nature of all phenomena. Of course this does not change when we are in rigpa. Quite the opposite (as Magnus already said).
In dzogchen is totally different.
Your primordially pure state is the nature of all dharmas.
The Kunjed Gyalpo says:" I am the root of all dharmas.
I am the nature of all dharmas, of all existence.
Apart from my nature, nothing exists"
It is difficult. Not maybe.florin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:15 pmMaybe this is difficult after all.