Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

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Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Virgo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:52 am

Let's say there is a Dzogchen practitioner that puts in decent effort in this life. Let's say he is not very advanced but is a decent practitioner. When that practitioner dies, let's say he fails to attain at the moment of death, or in the bardo, and decides to strongly will to be reborn in Dewachen. Let's say that practitioner get's to Dewachen, but let's say he learns or realizes he had the capacity to be reborn in one of the Dzogchen nirmanakaya Buddhafields instead, can he fly/travel there from Amitabha's Pureland?

Yes, this is the kind of stuff I think about.

Kevin...

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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by 如傑優婆塞 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:22 am

Just samples....

“Moreover, Shariputra, in that Buddhaland there is always heavenly music and the ground is yellow gold. In the six periods of the day and night a heavenly rain of mandarava flowers falls, and throughout the clear morning, each living being of that land, with sacks full of the myriads of wonderful flowers, makes offerings to the hundreds of thousands of millions of Buddhas of the other directions. At mealtime they return to their own country, and having eaten, they stroll around. More here

(Vow) 22. After I become a Buddha, if Bodhisattvas from other Buddha Lands who are reborn in my land should eventually fail to be in the holy position of waiting to attain Buddhahood in their next life, I would not attain the perfect enlightenment. Excepted are Bodhisattvas who choose not to be in that position because of their original vows. For the sake of delivering all sentient beings, they don their armor of great vows and develop their roots of virtue. They visit Buddha Lands, train in the Bodhisattva Way, and make offerings to Buddha-Tathāgatas [in worlds] in the ten directions. They develop and transform as many sentient beings as the sands of the Ganges, setting them on the Way to the unsurpassed bodhi. Transcending the regular course through the Bodhisattva Grounds, they currently cultivate the virtues of Samantabhadra Bodhisattva. More here

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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Aryjna » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:59 am

Virgo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:52 am
Let's say there is a Dzogchen practitioner that puts in decent effort in this life. Let's say he is not very advanced but is a decent practitioner. When that practitioner dies, let's say he fails to attain at the moment of death, or in the bardo, and decides to strongly will to be reborn in Dewachen. Let's say that practitioner get's to Dewachen, but let's say he learns or realizes he had the capacity to be reborn in one of the Dzogchen nirmanakaya Buddhafields instead, can he fly/travel there from Amitabha's Pureland?

Yes, this is the kind of stuff I think about.

Kevin...
Sukhavati is one of the five nirmanakaya buddhfields I think, though I am also curious why there is a gigantic difference in the time it takes for buddhahood. Maybe you are still in Sukhavati but because of one's practice, empowerments, etc. it takes less time.

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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Empty Desire » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:57 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:52 am
Let's say there is a Dzogchen practitioner that puts in decent effort in this life. Let's say he is not very advanced but is a decent practitioner. When that practitioner dies, let's say he fails to attain at the moment of death, or in the bardo, and decides to strongly will to be reborn in Dewachen. Let's say that practitioner get's to Dewachen, but let's say he learns or realizes he had the capacity to be reborn in one of the Dzogchen nirmanakaya Buddhafields instead, can he fly/travel there from Amitabha's Pureland?

Yes, this is the kind of stuff I think about.

Kevin...
( Vow 20 ) If, when I attain Buddhahood, sentient beings in the lands of the ten quarters who, having heard my Name, concentrate their thoughts on my land, plant roots of virtue, and sincerely transfer their merits towards my land with a desire to be born there, should not eventually fulfill their aspiration, may I not attain perfect Enlightenment.

Is Amitabha's Vow of Self-Effort and Transferring the Merit.

18th Vow is the concern of Jodo Shinshu where everything is Other Power including the recitation of the Name.

I remember but can't find an example of the 20th Vow being known as The Vow of the Buddha Appearing and Escorting from the Deathbed.

I think it was one of my former Jodo Shinshu's Teacher's Talks.

So to focus on that practice at the end of life with Self-Effort. If born in the Pure Land at that time, I'm sure our concerns are not the same as they are in this life. What is possible then I couldn't possibly comment.
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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Empty Desire » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:45 am

The key to the 20th Vow is also the Buddha-Centred Power also.

The virtues of the Name are really because of that power, not ours.

Also, the truth that you can get to Sukhavati by that means, because the 20th Vow is manifest.

I'll stop there as we're in the Dzogchen Forum.
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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Virgo » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:56 am

Empty Desire wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:45 am

I'll stop there as we're in the Dzogchen Forum.
No worries. I appreciate the info. Thank you to everyone.

Kevin...

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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by TrimePema » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:01 am

dewachen has a second special feature not shared with other purelands besides the easy admittance, which is that from dewachen one is able to go on day trips to all the other purelands. or so i was told.

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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by ford_truckin » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:15 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:59 am
Virgo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:52 am
Let's say there is a Dzogchen practitioner that puts in decent effort in this life. Let's say he is not very advanced but is a decent practitioner. When that practitioner dies, let's say he fails to attain at the moment of death, or in the bardo, and decides to strongly will to be reborn in Dewachen. Let's say that practitioner get's to Dewachen, but let's say he learns or realizes he had the capacity to be reborn in one of the Dzogchen nirmanakaya Buddhafields instead, can he fly/travel there from Amitabha's Pureland?

Yes, this is the kind of stuff I think about.

Kevin...
Sukhavati is one of the five nirmanakaya buddhfields I think, though I am also curious why there is a gigantic difference in the time it takes fo9r buddhahood. Maybe you are still in Sukhavati but because of one's practice, empowerments, etc. it takes less time.
Doesnt make sense.
Are there two seperate sukavatis? One for dzogchen practitioners and the other for pure landers?

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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Aryjna » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:05 am

ford_truckin wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:15 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:59 am
Virgo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:52 am
Let's say there is a Dzogchen practitioner that puts in decent effort in this life. Let's say he is not very advanced but is a decent practitioner. When that practitioner dies, let's say he fails to attain at the moment of death, or in the bardo, and decides to strongly will to be reborn in Dewachen. Let's say that practitioner get's to Dewachen, but let's say he learns or realizes he had the capacity to be reborn in one of the Dzogchen nirmanakaya Buddhafields instead, can he fly/travel there from Amitabha's Pureland?

Yes, this is the kind of stuff I think about.

Kevin...
Sukhavati is one of the five nirmanakaya buddhfields I think, though I am also curious why there is a gigantic difference in the time it takes fo9r buddhahood. Maybe you are still in Sukhavati but because of one's practice, empowerments, etc. it takes less time.
Doesnt make sense.
Are there two seperate sukavatis? One for dzogchen practitioners and the other for pure landers?
It can make sense, especially as in the sutras there already are different levels of rebirth in Sukhavati described. Also, even if it is not a different level, it does make some sense that if someone has already received empowerments and practiced Dzogchen (or whatever else), they may continue doing that in Sukhavati, while someone who has not, may not do that for a good number of kalpas. This is just an idea, I think this must have been covered somewhere in the tantras, or maybe one of the termas associated with Sukhavati.

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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:09 am

The levels of rebirth pertain to the time spent in an unopened lotus, hearing the teachings until one can see Amitabha face to face. The Contemplation Sutra explains more fully. Amitabha, as I understand it, does not distinguish between aspirants, either in teachings or in the adornments of his land. Beings there are said to offer mandarava flowers to many buddhas in other lands each day. But they learn and practice however will expedite them onto buddhahood. That's the point of Amitabha's land, after all.
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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Aryjna » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:16 am

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:09 am
The levels of rebirth pertain to the time spent in an unopened lotus, hearing the teachings until one can see Amitabha face to face. The Contemplation Sutra explains more fully. But Amitabha, as I understand it, does not distinguish between aspirants, either in teachings or in the adornments of his land. Beings there are said to offer mandarava flowers to many buddhas in other lands each day.
I don't think it would be a matter of discrimination from Amitabha's part. It would be more a matter of the right causes/conditions being in place, if someone wants to practice Dzogchen there. Like Virgo, I am curious about how this works, as often Vajrayana practitioners are encouraged to make aspirations for Sukhavati, while on the other hand Vajrayana is supposed to take few human lifetimes, while the time it takes for complete buddhahood in Sukhavati is an infinity.

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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:19 am

I assume since one's lifetime is immeasurable in Sukhavati, the issue is resolved that way. You attain your goal with no retrogression and no further rebirth.
namuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabu

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Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Aryjna » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:38 am

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:19 am
I assume since one's lifetime is immeasurable in Sukhavati, the issue is resolved that way. You attain your goal with no retrogression and no further rebirth.
It is possible, though it would be nice to have some specific explanation.


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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Vasana » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:10 am

TrimePema wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:01 am
dewachen has a second special feature not shared with other purelands besides the easy admittance, which is that from dewachen one is able to go on day trips to all the other purelands. or so i was told.
I don't think the second feature is entirely exclusive to Dewachen. Rather than 'day trips' its more connected with the Buddha of any land's power of illusory manifestion when teaching, and indivisibility with other Buddhas.

I'm sure I read about it in one of these Sutras but can't recall which.

http://read.84000.co/section/O1JC114941JC14668.html
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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Vasana » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:20 am

Virgo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:52 am
Let's say there is a Dzogchen practitioner that puts in decent effort in this life. Let's say he is not very advanced but is a decent practitioner. When that practitioner dies, let's say he fails to attain at the moment of death, or in the bardo, and decides to strongly will to be reborn in Dewachen. Let's say that practitioner get's to Dewachen, but let's say he learns or realizes he had the capacity to be reborn in one of the Dzogchen nirmanakaya Buddhafields instead, can he fly/travel there from Amitabha's Pureland?

Yes, this is the kind of stuff I think about.

Kevin...
Hopefully he will correct me if I'm mistaken here but Malcolm often mentions that Dzogchen practitioners are by default guaranteed rebirth in a nirmanakaya feild.

I'm not really sure how stability of ones recognition along with any unripened karma and karmic debts factor in here but would like to find out.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by SonamTashi » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:23 am

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:05 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:15 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:59 am


Sukhavati is one of the five nirmanakaya buddhfields I think, though I am also curious why there is a gigantic difference in the time it takes fo9r buddhahood. Maybe you are still in Sukhavati but because of one's practice, empowerments, etc. it takes less time.
Doesnt make sense.
Are there two seperate sukavatis? One for dzogchen practitioners and the other for pure landers?
It can make sense, especially as in the sutras there already are different levels of rebirth in Sukhavati described. Also, even if it is not a different level, it does make some sense that if someone has already received empowerments and practiced Dzogchen (or whatever else), they may continue doing that in Sukhavati, while someone who has not, may not do that for a good number of kalpas. This is just an idea, I think this must have been covered somewhere in the tantras, or maybe one of the termas associated with Sukhavati.
The issue here, that no one seems to be mentioning and that I've been very interested in but unsure how to bring it up, is that in the Sutra tradition (at least in East Asia), Sukhavati is considered a sambhogakaya realm, not a nirmanakaya realm. So are there two Sukhavatis? Is there just one, but it depends on how you perceive it?

In reference to the amount of time it takes to attain Buddhahood in Sukhavati, infinite time is simply the upper limit. I don't think I've ever seen anything anywhere that actually said it would take beings born into the higher levels of Sukhavati an infinite amount of time to achieve Buddhahood. In fact, if I'm remembering correctly, there is a breakdown of just how long it takes for each level to attain Buddhahood in the book Daily Practices of Western Pure Land Buddhism. I'll take a look at what it says and post if it has any relevant information. But even then, it should be noted that this book, being from a Vietnamese perspective, says nothing about Dzogchen practice (although the book does combine Vietnamese Tantra with Pure Land practice. The tantra contained in the practice seems like it would probably correlate to Kriya Tantra). I don't think there is any reason to think that Dzogchen practitioners would take an infinite amount of time to attain Buddhahood in the Western Pure Land. I do think that infinite time is simply the upper limit.
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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Aryjna » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:42 am

SonamTashi wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:23 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:05 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:15 pm

Doesnt make sense.
Are there two seperate sukavatis? One for dzogchen practitioners and the other for pure landers?
It can make sense, especially as in the sutras there already are different levels of rebirth in Sukhavati described. Also, even if it is not a different level, it does make some sense that if someone has already received empowerments and practiced Dzogchen (or whatever else), they may continue doing that in Sukhavati, while someone who has not, may not do that for a good number of kalpas. This is just an idea, I think this must have been covered somewhere in the tantras, or maybe one of the termas associated with Sukhavati.
The issue here, that no one seems to be mentioning and that I've been very interested in but unsure how to bring it up, is that in the Sutra tradition (at least in East Asia), Sukhavati is considered a sambhogakaya realm, not a nirmanakaya realm. So are there two Sukhavatis? Is there just one, but it depends on how you perceive it?

In reference to the amount of time it takes to attain Buddhahood in Sukhavati, infinite time is simply the upper limit. I don't think I've ever seen anything anywhere that actually said it would take beings born into the higher levels of Sukhavati an infinite amount of time to achieve Buddhahood. In fact, if I'm remembering correctly, there is a breakdown of just how long it takes for each level to attain Buddhahood in the book Daily Practices of Western Pure Land Buddhism. I'll take a look at what it says and post if it has any relevant information. But even then, it should be noted that this book, being from a Vietnamese perspective, says nothing about Dzogchen practice (although the book does combine Vietnamese Tantra with Pure Land practice. The tantra contained in the practice seems like it would probably correlate to Kriya Tantra). I don't think there is any reason to think that Dzogchen practitioners would take an infinite amount of time to attain Buddhahood in the Western Pure Land. I do think that infinite time is simply the upper limit.
In the long aspiration by Karma Chagme (this was discussed in another thread some time ago), the time is described. Also, there is the well known Namcho terma that includes a Sukhavati empowerment, and I think it is related to that aspiration by Karma Chagme, which creates the seeming contradiction.

http://www.kagyulibrary.hk/uploads/scri ... /58-en.pdf
In this realm the perfect Buddha Amitabha will remain Not passing into Nirvana, for countless kalpas, May I attend him for all that time. When Buddha Amitabha passes into Nirvana, For innumerable kalpas twice as much as the sand grains in the Ganges River, His Dharma will remain and flourish. During that time, may I be inseparable from Avalokiteshvara, his regent, [...]
Avalokiteshvara will attain Buddhahood [...] His lifespan will be extensive, Ninety six trillion kalpas. May I continuously attend by his side [...] Then, he will pass into Nirvana, And his Dharma will remain for six hundred trillion kalpas And a further three hundred thousand kalpas, may I uphold the Dharma. [...] Then, Mahasthamaprapta will attain Buddhahood, His lifespan and Dharma will equal that of Avalokiteshvara, [...] Then, at the moment of my death, In this or another pure realm, May I attain ultimate enlightenment, Buddhahood just the same as Amitayus. May I liberate all beings just by hearing my name.

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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by SonamTashi » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:15 am

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:42 am
SonamTashi wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:23 am
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:05 am

It can make sense, especially as in the sutras there already are different levels of rebirth in Sukhavati described. Also, even if it is not a different level, it does make some sense that if someone has already received empowerments and practiced Dzogchen (or whatever else), they may continue doing that in Sukhavati, while someone who has not, may not do that for a good number of kalpas. This is just an idea, I think this must have been covered somewhere in the tantras, or maybe one of the termas associated with Sukhavati.
The issue here, that no one seems to be mentioning and that I've been very interested in but unsure how to bring it up, is that in the Sutra tradition (at least in East Asia), Sukhavati is considered a sambhogakaya realm, not a nirmanakaya realm. So are there two Sukhavatis? Is there just one, but it depends on how you perceive it?

In reference to the amount of time it takes to attain Buddhahood in Sukhavati, infinite time is simply the upper limit. I don't think I've ever seen anything anywhere that actually said it would take beings born into the higher levels of Sukhavati an infinite amount of time to achieve Buddhahood. In fact, if I'm remembering correctly, there is a breakdown of just how long it takes for each level to attain Buddhahood in the book Daily Practices of Western Pure Land Buddhism. I'll take a look at what it says and post if it has any relevant information. But even then, it should be noted that this book, being from a Vietnamese perspective, says nothing about Dzogchen practice (although the book does combine Vietnamese Tantra with Pure Land practice. The tantra contained in the practice seems like it would probably correlate to Kriya Tantra). I don't think there is any reason to think that Dzogchen practitioners would take an infinite amount of time to attain Buddhahood in the Western Pure Land. I do think that infinite time is simply the upper limit.
In the long aspiration by Karma Chagme (this was discussed in another thread some time ago), the time is described. Also, there is the well known Namcho terma that includes a Sukhavati empowerment, and I think it is related to that aspiration by Karma Chagme, which creates the seeming contradiction.

http://www.kagyulibrary.hk/uploads/scri ... /58-en.pdf
In this realm the perfect Buddha Amitabha will remain Not passing into Nirvana, for countless kalpas, May I attend him for all that time. When Buddha Amitabha passes into Nirvana, For innumerable kalpas twice as much as the sand grains in the Ganges River, His Dharma will remain and flourish. During that time, may I be inseparable from Avalokiteshvara, his regent, [...]
Avalokiteshvara will attain Buddhahood [...] His lifespan will be extensive, Ninety six trillion kalpas. May I continuously attend by his side [...] Then, he will pass into Nirvana, And his Dharma will remain for six hundred trillion kalpas And a further three hundred thousand kalpas, may I uphold the Dharma. [...] Then, Mahasthamaprapta will attain Buddhahood, His lifespan and Dharma will equal that of Avalokiteshvara, [...] Then, at the moment of my death, In this or another pure realm, May I attain ultimate enlightenment, Buddhahood just the same as Amitayus. May I liberate all beings just by hearing my name.
Certainly if you practice the Namcho terma and make that particular aspiration it will take an infinite amount of time, because that's contained in the aspiration. However, Malcolm has said (in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=22568&start=40):
There are actually 21 capacities discussed in the Dzogchen tantras, only the best of the best attain rainbow body in this life. The rest are liberated in the bardo, and the last four or so of the average take rebirth in nirmanakāya buddhafields

...

These last few attain buddhahood in 500 years after taking birth for 125 years in each of the buddhafields of the four directions.
So for Dzogchen practitioners at least, Buddhahood can be attained in the Pure Lands in a remarkably shorter amount of time.
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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by SonamTashi » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:18 am

I'm still interested in the discrepancy in Tibetan Buddhism referring to Dewachen as a Nirmanakaya realm and Pure Land Buddhists referring to it as a Sambhogakaya realm. I don't really know what to make of it, other than I guess the traditions just disagree.
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Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Aryjna » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:56 am

SonamTashi wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:15 am
Certainly if you practice the Namcho terma and make that particular aspiration it will take an infinite amount of time, because that's contained in the aspiration. However, Malcolm has said (in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=22568&start=40):
There are actually 21 capacities discussed in the Dzogchen tantras, only the best of the best attain rainbow body in this life. The rest are liberated in the bardo, and the last four or so of the average take rebirth in nirmanakāya buddhafields

...

These last few attain buddhahood in 500 years after taking birth for 125 years in each of the buddhafields of the four directions.
So for Dzogchen practitioners at least, Buddhahood can be attained in the Pure Lands in a remarkably shorter amount of time.
Karma Chagme was himself a Dzogchen/Mahamudra master, and in the beginning of this aspiration he says it is his 'root practice'. This does not make much sense, unless there is something being overlooked. Would he just prolong his time to buddhahood by an infinity rather than achieve it immediately?

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