Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

User avatar
SonamTashi
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by SonamTashi » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:48 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:56 am
SonamTashi wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:15 am
Certainly if you practice the Namcho terma and make that particular aspiration it will take an infinite amount of time, because that's contained in the aspiration. However, Malcolm has said (in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=22568&start=40):
There are actually 21 capacities discussed in the Dzogchen tantras, only the best of the best attain rainbow body in this life. The rest are liberated in the bardo, and the last four or so of the average take rebirth in nirmanakāya buddhafields

...

These last few attain buddhahood in 500 years after taking birth for 125 years in each of the buddhafields of the four directions.
So for Dzogchen practitioners at least, Buddhahood can be attained in the Pure Lands in a remarkably shorter amount of time.
Karma Chagme was himself a Dzogchen/Mahamudra master, and in the beginning of this aspiration he says it is his 'root practice'. This does not make much sense, unless there is something being overlooked. Would he just prolong his time to buddhahood by an infinity rather than achieve it immediately?
:shrug:

Maybe Malcolm or someone could address the 500 year thing and clear this all up. I can only think of one explanation, and I don't know how likely it is, in fact I kind of feel stupid writing it out because I just feel like I don't know enough about this at all. According to Tibetan Buddhism, Avalokiteshvara/Chenrezig is already a Buddha, and as such it seems Chenrezig's presence and actions in Dewachen are simply a display, including the future attainment of Buddhahood, since he is already a Buddha. I assume the same is true of Mahasthamaprapta/Vajrapani as well. So maybe a Dzogchen practitioner making that particular vow is simply vowing to follow in Chenrezig's footsteps, i.e. vowing to manifest as a Bodhisattva again after attaining Buddhahood, in order to be an attendant to the resident Buddha of that Pure Land, and to put on the display again of attaining Buddhahood once that Buddha passes into paranirvana. I have no idea. :shrug:
:bow: :buddha1: :bow: :anjali: :meditate:

Motova
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Motova » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:15 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:05 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:15 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:59 am


Sukhavati is one of the five nirmanakaya buddhfields I think, though I am also curious why there is a gigantic difference in the time it takes fo9r buddhahood. Maybe you are still in Sukhavati but because of one's practice, empowerments, etc. it takes less time.
Doesnt make sense.
Are there two seperate sukavatis? One for dzogchen practitioners and the other for pure landers?
It can make sense, especially as in the sutras there already are different levels of rebirth in Sukhavati described. Also, even if it is not a different level, it does make some sense that if someone has already received empowerments and practiced Dzogchen (or whatever else), they may continue doing that in Sukhavati, while someone who has not, may not do that for a good number of kalpas. This is just an idea, I think this must have been covered somewhere in the tantras, or maybe one of the termas associated with Sukhavati.
Empowerments are only for one lifetime.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Motova
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Motova » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:18 pm

Vasana wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:20 am
Virgo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:52 am
Let's say there is a Dzogchen practitioner that puts in decent effort in this life. Let's say he is not very advanced but is a decent practitioner. When that practitioner dies, let's say he fails to attain at the moment of death, or in the bardo, and decides to strongly will to be reborn in Dewachen. Let's say that practitioner get's to Dewachen, but let's say he learns or realizes he had the capacity to be reborn in one of the Dzogchen nirmanakaya Buddhafields instead, can he fly/travel there from Amitabha's Pureland?

Yes, this is the kind of stuff I think about.

Kevin...
Hopefully he will correct me if I'm mistaken here but Malcolm often mentions that Dzogchen practitioners are by default guaranteed rebirth in a nirmanakaya feild.

I'm not really sure how stability of ones recognition along with any unripened karma and karmic debts factor in here but would like to find out.
If one has faith in Dzogchen one is guaranteed enlightenment in three lives, if one recognizes the nature of mind then one is guaranteed rebirth in a pureland.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Aryjna » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:19 pm

Motova wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:15 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:05 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:15 pm

Doesnt make sense.
Are there two seperate sukavatis? One for dzogchen practitioners and the other for pure landers?
It can make sense, especially as in the sutras there already are different levels of rebirth in Sukhavati described. Also, even if it is not a different level, it does make some sense that if someone has already received empowerments and practiced Dzogchen (or whatever else), they may continue doing that in Sukhavati, while someone who has not, may not do that for a good number of kalpas. This is just an idea, I think this must have been covered somewhere in the tantras, or maybe one of the termas associated with Sukhavati.
Empowerments are only for one lifetime.
They are not only for one lifetime, they are until buddhahood. They would be useless if they were for one lifetime.

Motova
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Motova » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:22 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:19 pm
Motova wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:15 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:05 am

It can make sense, especially as in the sutras there already are different levels of rebirth in Sukhavati described. Also, even if it is not a different level, it does make some sense that if someone has already received empowerments and practiced Dzogchen (or whatever else), they may continue doing that in Sukhavati, while someone who has not, may not do that for a good number of kalpas. This is just an idea, I think this must have been covered somewhere in the tantras, or maybe one of the termas associated with Sukhavati.
Empowerments are only for one lifetime.
They are not only for one lifetime, they are until buddhahood. They would be useless if they were for one lifetime.
Samayas are only for one lifetime, and so is the ability to practice according to the empowerment one received. Once one dies, one must receive the empowerment again in one's new body.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Aryjna » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:24 pm

Motova wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:22 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:19 pm
Motova wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:15 pm


Empowerments are only for one lifetime.
They are not only for one lifetime, they are until buddhahood. They would be useless if they were for one lifetime.
Samayas are only for one lifetime, and so is the ability to practice according to the empowerment one received. Once one dies, one must receive the empowerment again in one's new body.
The samaya is is not for one lifetime. The point of the samaya is that it leads you to buddhahood, if it stopped when you die then you do not need it at all. As for practice, I suppose you need it again in order to practice, if you are karmically reborn as a sentient being again.

Motova
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Motova » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:25 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:24 pm
Motova wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:22 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:19 pm


They are not only for one lifetime, they are until buddhahood. They would be useless if they were for one lifetime.
Samayas are only for one lifetime, and so is the ability to practice according to the empowerment one received. Once one dies, one must receive the empowerment again in one's new body.
The samaya is is not for one lifetime. The point of the samaya is that it leads you to buddhahood, if it stopped when you die then you do not need it at all. As for practice, I suppose you need it again in order to practice, if you are karmically reborn as a sentient being again.
The point is when you die and are reborn, you don't have samayas to follow....
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Aryjna » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:34 pm

Motova wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:25 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:24 pm
Motova wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:22 pm


Samayas are only for one lifetime, and so is the ability to practice according to the empowerment one received. Once one dies, one must receive the empowerment again in one's new body.
The samaya is is not for one lifetime. The point of the samaya is that it leads you to buddhahood, if it stopped when you die then you do not need it at all. As for practice, I suppose you need it again in order to practice, if you are karmically reborn as a sentient being again.
The point is when you die and are reborn, you don't have samayas to follow....
Yes. Regarding Sukhavati, assuming that there is a difference of infinite kalpas versus 500 years until buddhahood, between someone who is reborn there though 10 nembutsu before death and someone who has had significant realization, I assume that they do not both have the causes to practice the same things and at the same level when they get there. Then again, apparently the aspiration of Karma Chagme does not seem to agree with the 500 years, and although that aspiration is a sutra practice, he was a Dzogchen master and he says it was his main practice.

User avatar
Admin_PC
Site Admin
Posts: 4497
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm
Location: Texas, USA

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Admin_PC » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:02 pm

SonamTashi wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:23 am
The issue here, that no one seems to be mentioning and that I've been very interested in but unsure how to bring it up, is that in the Sutra tradition (at least in East Asia), Sukhavati is considered a sambhogakaya realm, not a nirmanakaya realm. So are there two Sukhavatis? Is there just one, but it depends on how you perceive it?
Traditionally (especially in Tendai/Tientai), there were 4 levels/understandings/types to the Pure Land - 四土.
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... s_of_lands
(1) 凡聖同居土 The Land of Sages and Common Mortals, also referred to as the Land of Enlightened and Unenlightened Beings. Here ordinary people of the six paths, or the six lower of the Ten Worlds, live together with the sages of the four noble worlds, or the four higher of the Ten Worlds.

(2) 方便有宗土 The Land of Transition, which is inhabited by voice-hearers, cause-awakened ones, and bodhisattvas in the lower stages of practice.

(3) 実報無障土 The Land of Actual Reward, a realm inhabited by bodhisattvas in the higher stages of practice.

(4) 常寂光土 The Land of Eternally Tranquil Light, or simply the Land of Tranquil Light, where a Buddha lives. This Buddha land is free from impermanence and impurity.

(The later 2 would qualify for Sambhogakaya Buddhafield if I'm not mistaken)
In reference to the amount of time it takes to attain Buddhahood in Sukhavati, infinite time is simply the upper limit. I don't think I've ever seen anything anywhere that actually said it would take beings born into the higher levels of Sukhavati an infinite amount of time to achieve Buddhahood.
The amount of time is touched on in the Visualization Sutra, numbers 14-16
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra24.html
I know this sutra is not canonical outside of the east asian tradition.
月影の いたらぬ里は なけれども 眺むる人の 心にぞすむ
法然上人

User avatar
Losal Samten
Posts: 1460
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Losal Samten » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:48 pm

Admin_PC wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:02 pm
Traditionally (especially in Tendai/Tientai), there were 4 levels/understandings/types to the Pure Land - 四土.
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... s_of_lands

(1) 凡聖同居土 The Land of Sages and Common Mortals, also referred to as the Land of Enlightened and Unenlightened Beings. Here ordinary people of the six paths, or the six lower of the Ten Worlds, live together with the sages of the four noble worlds, or the four higher of the Ten Worlds.

(2) 方便有宗土 The Land of Transition, which is inhabited by voice-hearers, cause-awakened ones, and bodhisattvas in the lower stages of practice.

(3) 実報無障土 The Land of Actual Reward, a realm inhabited by bodhisattvas in the higher stages of practice.

(4) 常寂光土 The Land of Eternally Tranquil Light, or simply the Land of Tranquil Light, where a Buddha lives. This Buddha land is free from impermanence and impurity.

(The later 2 would qualify for Sambhogakaya Buddhafield if I'm not mistaken)
Awesome, cheers for that! Clears up a lot of stuff.
Admin_PC wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:02 pm
The amount of time is touched on in the Visualization Sutra, numbers 14-16
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra24.html
I know this sutra is not canonical outside of the east asian tradition.
Interestingly, with regard to Karma Chagme's Aspiration prayer, his mention of Amitabha passing and Avalokita taking his place, and then Mahasthamaprapta eventually taking over his place, means that Karma Chagme had read the White Lotus of Compassion Sutra and considered it canon.

Do you know how the Chinese Tien'tai masters considered it? IIRC you've said before that the Japanese schools don't view it as canonical.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

User avatar
Admin_PC
Site Admin
Posts: 4497
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm
Location: Texas, USA

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Admin_PC » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:57 pm

Losal Samten wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:48 pm
Interestingly, with regard to Karma Chagme's Aspiration prayer, his mention of Amitabha passing and Avalokita taking his place, and then Mahasthamaprapta eventually taking over his place, means that Karma Chagme had read the White Lotus of Compassion Sutra and considered it canon.

Do you know how the Chinese Tien'tai masters considered it? IIRC you've said before that the Japanese schools don't view it as canonical.
I think the applicable sutra is this one:
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra07.html
And the applicable quote:
The Buddha said, “Good man, although Amitābha Buddha’s lifespan will last innumerable hundreds, thousands, and koṭis of kalpas, it will finally come to an end. Good man, after incalculable distant kalpas to come, Amitābha Buddha will enter parinirvāṇa. After His parinirvāṇa, the true Dharma will continue for as long as His lifespan. The number of sentient beings that will be delivered will equal that during His life. After Amitābha’s parinirvāṇa, some sentient beings there will not be able to see a Buddha. However, Bodhisattvas who have attained the Thinking-of-Buddhas Samādhi will constantly see Amitābha Buddha. Furthermore, good man, after His parinirvāṇa, all the precious things, such as bathing ponds, lotus flowers, and jeweled trees in lines, will continue to sound Dharma tones, in the same way as during that Buddha’s life.
Pure Land people hold this one to be canonical, just not primary. Even still, although he's displayed parinirvana, people who have attained the Thinking-of-Buddhas Samadhi (Nembutsu Samadhi) will still see him and his Pure Land will still continue for a long time until it ends and then Avalokitesvara's upgraded Pure Land immediately takes over...
月影の いたらぬ里は なけれども 眺むる人の 心にぞすむ
法然上人

User avatar
Losal Samten
Posts: 1460
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Losal Samten » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:16 pm

Got it Image
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

ford_truckin
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:03 am

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by ford_truckin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:48 pm

Admin_PC wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:57 pm
Losal Samten wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:48 pm
Interestingly, with regard to Karma Chagme's Aspiration prayer, his mention of Amitabha passing and Avalokita taking his place, and then Mahasthamaprapta eventually taking over his place, means that Karma Chagme had read the White Lotus of Compassion Sutra and considered it canon.

Do you know how the Chinese Tien'tai masters considered it? IIRC you've said before that the Japanese schools don't view it as canonical.
I think the applicable sutra is this one:
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra07.html
And the applicable quote:
The Buddha said, “Good man, although Amitābha Buddha’s lifespan will last innumerable hundreds, thousands, and koṭis of kalpas, it will finally come to an end. Good man, after incalculable distant kalpas to come, Amitābha Buddha will enter parinirvāṇa. After His parinirvāṇa, the true Dharma will continue for as long as His lifespan. The number of sentient beings that will be delivered will equal that during His life. After Amitābha’s parinirvāṇa, some sentient beings there will not be able to see a Buddha. However, Bodhisattvas who have attained the Thinking-of-Buddhas Samādhi will constantly see Amitābha Buddha. Furthermore, good man, after His parinirvāṇa, all the precious things, such as bathing ponds, lotus flowers, and jeweled trees in lines, will continue to sound Dharma tones, in the same way as during that Buddha’s life.
Pure Land people hold this one to be canonical, just not primary. Even still, although he's displayed parinirvana, people who have attained the Thinking-of-Buddhas Samadhi (Nembutsu Samadhi) will still see him and his Pure Land will still continue for a long time until it ends and then Avalokitesvara's upgraded Pure Land immediately takes over...
I thought Buddhas in Mahayana don't enter parinirvana and what is the need for the upgrade?

User avatar
Admin_PC
Site Admin
Posts: 4497
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm
Location: Texas, USA

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Admin_PC » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:53 pm

ford_truckin wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:48 pm
I thought Buddhas in Mahayana don't enter parinirvana and what is the need for the upgrade?
In Mahayana, Buddhas display parinirvana (largely for the sake of followers), they do not abide in it - that is to say they never stop working for the benefit of sentient beings.

The upgrade? I don't quite understand it myself, but it's in the sutra I referenced, which is considered canonical. I imagine it's for the purpose of reaching a wider audience.
月影の いたらぬ里は なけれども 眺むる人の 心にぞすむ
法然上人

User avatar
Monlam Tharchin
Global Moderator
Posts: 1908
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am

Re: Amitabha Pureland connecting flight to Nirmanakaya Buddhafield

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:29 pm

I always read that interesting little bit as saying that the buddhas will adapt their displays to best reach beings as their proclivities change over time. Don't forget that, according to the Larger Amitayus Sutra, there will be a time when only the Dharma of the name "Amitabha Buddha" will remain in the world, then even that will disappear until Maitreya comes.

But this is the Dzogchen forum and we're maybe drifting a bit!
namuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabu

The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions.
Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

Free Pure Land Buddhism resources

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Leif and 28 guests