Guruyoga with one's enemies?

climb-up
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Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:44 am

Hi,

First of all, my apologies, I may have asked this in the past. If I hadn't, then I had meant to,but I cannot find it through the search function.

I recently read (in "Beyond Words" by Judith Allen and Julia Lawless) that one of the Dzogchen Tantras recommends the pracatice of guruyoga with one's enemies as a practice to overcoming attachment and aversion. I've heard of this practice before.

Does anyone know what the Tantra is and if it is translated in english?

climb-up
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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:15 pm

Huh, I assumed this would be easy to find out.

Is anyone familiar with this practice or any other place it has been mentioned or taught?

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Josef
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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Josef » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:29 pm

climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:15 pm
Huh, I assumed this would be easy to find out.

Is anyone familiar with this practice or any other place it has been mentioned or taught?
I have not heard of anything like this and it seems quite odd.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

climb-up
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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:47 am

Josef wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:29 pm
climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:15 pm
Huh, I assumed this would be easy to find out.

Is anyone familiar with this practice or any other place it has been mentioned or taught?
I have not heard of anything like this and it seems quite odd.
As I mentioned, I had heard of it before. The person who mentioned it (who may well have read it in the book mentioned above, a book he later recommended to me), said it in a group of DC members.(he and they were leading an intro night) and there was 'great nashing of teeth,' so to speak, and some definite uncertainty that it sounded like a good idea.

To me it feels like it makes sense, but I would very much like to see the context within which it was written; or better yet, hear some teachings on this.

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Josef
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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Josef » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:55 am

climb-up wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:47 am
Josef wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:29 pm
climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:15 pm
Huh, I assumed this would be easy to find out.

Is anyone familiar with this practice or any other place it has been mentioned or taught?
I have not heard of anything like this and it seems quite odd.
As I mentioned, I had heard of it before. The person who mentioned it (who may well have read it in the book mentioned above, a book he later recommended to me), said it in a group of DC members.(he and they were leading an intro night) and there was 'great nashing of teeth,' so to speak, and some definite uncertainty that it sounded like a good idea.

To me it feels like it makes sense, but I would very much like to see the context within which it was written; or better yet, hear some teachings on this.
It definitely sounds like a bad idea.
Considering the way guru yoga works, this doesnt sound like it fits the mold at all unless there is some significant context we are missing.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Seeker12
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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Seeker12 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:13 am

climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:44 am
Hi,

First of all, my apologies, I may have asked this in the past. If I hadn't, then I had meant to,but I cannot find it through the search function.

I recently read (in "Beyond Words" by Judith Allen and Julia Lawless) that one of the Dzogchen Tantras recommends the pracatice of guruyoga with one's enemies as a practice to overcoming attachment and aversion. I've heard of this practice before.

Does anyone know what the Tantra is and if it is translated in english?
There are times when, for example, you may imagine yourself with all beings and the sources of refuge in front, showering blessings on all. Your ‘enemies’ of course would/could be included there. I don’t offhand otherwise know of any specific Guru Yogas ‘on’ your enemies.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:58 am

Seeker12 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:13 am
climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:44 am
Hi,

First of all, my apologies, I may have asked this in the past. If I hadn't, then I had meant to,but I cannot find it through the search function.

I recently read (in "Beyond Words" by Judith Allen and Julia Lawless) that one of the Dzogchen Tantras recommends the pracatice of guruyoga with one's enemies as a practice to overcoming attachment and aversion. I've heard of this practice before.

Does anyone know what the Tantra is and if it is translated in english?
There are times when, for example, you may imagine yourself with all beings and the sources of refuge in front, showering blessings on all. Your ‘enemies’ of course would/could be included there. I don’t offhand otherwise know of any specific Guru Yogas ‘on’ your enemies.
Well that would certainly make sense, even be standard for refuge (afaik), but based on the context I don't believe that is what is being referenced.

I was assuming it had to do with ultimate bodhcitta and being non-dual with their already fully enlightened state.

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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Aryjna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:00 am

climb-up wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:58 am
Seeker12 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:13 am
climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:44 am
Hi,

First of all, my apologies, I may have asked this in the past. If I hadn't, then I had meant to,but I cannot find it through the search function.

I recently read (in "Beyond Words" by Judith Allen and Julia Lawless) that one of the Dzogchen Tantras recommends the pracatice of guruyoga with one's enemies as a practice to overcoming attachment and aversion. I've heard of this practice before.

Does anyone know what the Tantra is and if it is translated in english?
There are times when, for example, you may imagine yourself with all beings and the sources of refuge in front, showering blessings on all. Your ‘enemies’ of course would/could be included there. I don’t offhand otherwise know of any specific Guru Yogas ‘on’ your enemies.
Well that would certainly make sense, even be standard for refuge (afaik), but based on the context I don't believe that is what is being referenced.
That is what I also thought when i saw the thread title. It is the only option that makes sense.

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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:16 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:00 am
climb-up wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:58 am
Seeker12 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:13 am


There are times when, for example, you may imagine yourself with all beings and the sources of refuge in front, showering blessings on all. Your ‘enemies’ of course would/could be included there. I don’t offhand otherwise know of any specific Guru Yogas ‘on’ your enemies.
Well that would certainly make sense, even be standard for refuge (afaik), but based on the context I don't believe that is what is being referenced.
That is what I also thought when i saw the thread title. It is the only option that makes sense.
I get what you're saying, but that doesn't make sense in terms of what was written.
If that was the case then, instead of saying "one dzogchen tantra even says..." it would say "as every single refuge visualization says..." (that was an exaggeration, but you get my point).
That is aside from the context of guruyoga that wasn't being discussed.

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Aryjna
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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Aryjna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:23 am

climb-up wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:16 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:00 am
climb-up wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:58 am

Well that would certainly make sense, even be standard for refuge (afaik), but based on the context I don't believe that is what is being referenced.
That is what I also thought when i saw the thread title. It is the only option that makes sense.
I get what you're saying, but that doesn't make sense in terms of what was written.
If that was the case then, instead of saying "one dzogchen tantra even says..." it would say "as every single refuge visualization says..." (that was an exaggeration, but you get my point).
That is aside from the context of guruyoga that wasn't being discussed.
It sounds strange, but why not I suppose.

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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Josef » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:29 pm

"Whenever we study or practice this Secret Mantra Vajrayana, it is essential to keep in mind the five perfections. As Jigme Lingpa said:

He who sees his teacher as a man
Will receive the very lowest accomplishment.

The teacher should perceive the disciples as Buddhas, and the disciples should perceive the teacher as Buddha. Otherwise they are no less than samaya breakers, for in the Secret Mantra Vajrayana the difference between someone who keeps the samaya and a samaya breaker is that the former perceives phenomena as deities, whereas the samaya breaker sees earth as earth, water as water, and so on.

Therefore, the first of the five perfections is to realize that the teacher is the Buddha."

Patrul Rinpoche - The Words of My Perfect Teacher
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

climb-up
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:35 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:29 pm
"Whenever we study or practice this Secret Mantra Vajrayana, it is essential to keep in mind the five perfections. As Jigme Lingpa said:

He who sees his teacher as a man
Will receive the very lowest accomplishment.

The teacher should perceive the disciples as Buddhas, and the disciples should perceive the teacher as Buddha. Otherwise they are no less than samaya breakers, for in the Secret Mantra Vajrayana the difference between someone who keeps the samaya and a samaya breaker is that the former perceives phenomena as deities, whereas the samaya breaker sees earth as earth, water as water, and so on.

Therefore, the first of the five perfections is to realize that the teacher is the Buddha."

Patrul Rinpoche - The Words of My Perfect Teacher
Good quote, thank you, always important to remember.
Can you expand on how you you feel it either speaks to or against the idea of doing guruyoga on the image of one's enemy?

Another, I think, relevant quote:
Perhaps I am the incarnation of a being from the lower realms. If you see me as Buddha, then you will receive Buddha's blessing by virtue of your faith.
I'm also reminded of the story of a lama (I can't remember who) who was circumambulating a stupa, and expanded his circle to include a sick dog. His students where surprised and asked why he was honoring the dog in such a way, he explained that it was not the dog as such, but the dog's inherent buddha nature that he honored.
(If anyone knows that story, ...who was the lama?)

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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Josef » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:48 am

climb-up wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:35 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:29 pm
"Whenever we study or practice this Secret Mantra Vajrayana, it is essential to keep in mind the five perfections. As Jigme Lingpa said:

He who sees his teacher as a man
Will receive the very lowest accomplishment.

The teacher should perceive the disciples as Buddhas, and the disciples should perceive the teacher as Buddha. Otherwise they are no less than samaya breakers, for in the Secret Mantra Vajrayana the difference between someone who keeps the samaya and a samaya breaker is that the former perceives phenomena as deities, whereas the samaya breaker sees earth as earth, water as water, and so on.

Therefore, the first of the five perfections is to realize that the teacher is the Buddha."

Patrul Rinpoche - The Words of My Perfect Teacher
Good quote, thank you, always important to remember.
Can you expand on how you you feel it either speaks to or against the idea of doing guruyoga on the image of one's enemy?

Another, I think, relevant quote:
Perhaps I am the incarnation of a being from the lower realms. If you see me as Buddha, then you will receive Buddha's blessing by virtue of your faith.
I'm also reminded of the story of a lama (I can't remember who) who was circumambulating a stupa, and expanded his circle to include a sick dog. His students where surprised and asked why he was honoring the dog in such a way, he explained that it was not the dog as such, but the dog's inherent buddha nature that he honored.
(If anyone knows that story, ...who was the lama?)
If you can see your enemies as perfect buddhas, sure. If you can see them as perfect buddhas they arent enemies.
Maybe that is the point.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

climb-up
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:31 am

Josef wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:48 am
climb-up wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:35 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:29 pm
"Whenever we study or practice this Secret Mantra Vajrayana, it is essential to keep in mind the five perfections. As Jigme Lingpa said:

He who sees his teacher as a man
Will receive the very lowest accomplishment.

The teacher should perceive the disciples as Buddhas, and the disciples should perceive the teacher as Buddha. Otherwise they are no less than samaya breakers, for in the Secret Mantra Vajrayana the difference between someone who keeps the samaya and a samaya breaker is that the former perceives phenomena as deities, whereas the samaya breaker sees earth as earth, water as water, and so on.

Therefore, the first of the five perfections is to realize that the teacher is the Buddha."

Patrul Rinpoche - The Words of My Perfect Teacher
Good quote, thank you, always important to remember.
Can you expand on how you you feel it either speaks to or against the idea of doing guruyoga on the image of one's enemy?

Another, I think, relevant quote:
Perhaps I am the incarnation of a being from the lower realms. If you see me as Buddha, then you will receive Buddha's blessing by virtue of your faith.
I'm also reminded of the story of a lama (I can't remember who) who was circumambulating a stupa, and expanded his circle to include a sick dog. His students where surprised and asked why he was honoring the dog in such a way, he explained that it was not the dog as such, but the dog's inherent buddha nature that he honored.
(If anyone knows that story, ...who was the lama?)
If you can see your enemies as perfect buddhas, sure. If you can see them as perfect buddhas they arent enemies.
Maybe that is the point.
Yes! :heart: :heart: :heart:
That is definitely in line with how I interpret it.
I do, very much, hope to find out what tantra this idea is from and read it in context someday...
...but it seems as though it may be a while, so this is how I'm going to continue to think of it.

climb-up
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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:04 am


If you can see your enemies as perfect buddhas, sure. If you can see them as perfect buddhas they arent enemies.
Maybe that is the point.
Yes! :heart: :heart: :heart:
That is definitely in line with how I interpret it
I mean ...easier said than done sometimes, but that's the goal/ideal/work-in-progress

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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by conebeckham » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:41 am

At a certain level of practice, all experience is the display of the guru. This includes one’s enemies. There is something called “lama’i Lam Khyer” in this regard.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Empty Desire
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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Empty Desire » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:14 am

climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:44 am
Hi,

First of all, my apologies, I may have asked this in the past. If I hadn't, then I had meant to,but I cannot find it through the search function.

I recently read (in "Beyond Words" by Judith Allen and Julia Lawless) that one of the Dzogchen Tantras recommends the pracatice of guruyoga with one's enemies as a practice to overcoming attachment and aversion. I've heard of this practice before.

Does anyone know what the Tantra is and if it is translated in english?
In Drikung Kagyu, there is a specific focus on Compassion for Enemies.

Garchen taught recently that Enemies were people who were kind to us beforehand and we treated badly so they became enemies now, but before they were kind!!!!

Probably most Vajrayana practices deal with this aspect of Samsara one way or another.
No Beginning, No End, Just Mind......

Attachment's True Face is Aversion....

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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:28 am

conebeckham wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:41 am
At a certain level of practice, all experience is the display of the guru. This includes one’s enemies. There is something called “lama’i Lam Khyer” in this regard.
Yes!
I am familiar with this idea in general, and specifically as discussed in Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche's book "Wish fulfilling Jewel. What does “lama’i Lam Khyer” translate too?

climb-up
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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:29 am

Empty Desire wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:14 am

In Drikung Kagyu, there is a specific focus on Compassion for Enemies.

Garchen taught recently that Enemies were people who were kind to us beforehand and we treated badly so they became enemies now, but before they were kind!!!!
:anjali:

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conebeckham
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Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by conebeckham » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:09 pm

climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:28 am
conebeckham wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:41 am
At a certain level of practice, all experience is the display of the guru. This includes one’s enemies. There is something called “lama’i Lam Khyer” in this regard.
Yes!
I am familiar with this idea in general, and specifically as discussed in Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche's book "Wish fulfilling Jewel. What does “lama’i Lam Khyer” translate too?
"Carrying the Lama on the Path"
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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