Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1756
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:19 pm

Guru yoga is to absorb the guru’s qualities. I wonder if one wants to absorb the qualities of one’s enemies.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

climb-up
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:27 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:09 pm
climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:28 am
conebeckham wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:41 am
At a certain level of practice, all experience is the display of the guru. This includes one’s enemies. There is something called “lama’i Lam Khyer” in this regard.
Yes!
I am familiar with this idea in general, and specifically as discussed in Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche's book "Wish fulfilling Jewel. What does “lama’i Lam Khyer” translate too?
"Carrying the Lama on the Path"
Beautiful, thank you.

climb-up
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:33 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:19 pm
Guru yoga is to absorb the guru’s qualities. I wonder if one wants to absorb the qualities of one’s enemies.
Right. Well, that's why I was hoping to get an explanation.
Specifically in guruyoga we want to connect with the guru's quality of having realized his or her own Buddha nature, and to have the realization that the guru, the buddha and ourselves have the same nature.

Of course, our enemies also have buddha nature; which is why I wonder if the practice has to do with realizing/connecting/finding-yourself-non-dual with that.
I don't know. Since the book is (IMO) pretty good and well referenced I am giving them the benefit of the doubt until/unless I hear something definitive otherwise (benefit of it being a true practice, not that I will practice it on my own without learning more or anything).

It definitely seems, to me, to be in line with "Carrying the Lama on the Path."

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1756
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:02 pm

climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:33 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:19 pm
Guru yoga is to absorb the guru’s qualities. I wonder if one wants to absorb the qualities of one’s enemies.
Right. Well, that's why I was hoping to get an explanation.
Specifically in guruyoga we want to connect with the guru's quality of having realized his or her own Buddha nature, and to have the realization that the guru, the buddha and ourselves have the same nature.

Of course, our enemies also have buddha nature; which is why I wonder if the practice has to do with realizing/connecting/finding-yourself-non-dual with that.
I don't know. Since the book is (IMO) pretty good and well referenced I am giving them the benefit of the doubt until/unless I hear something definitive otherwise (benefit of it being a true practice, not that I will practice it on my own without learning more or anything).

It definitely seems, to me, to be in line with "Carrying the Lama on the Path."
Everyone has Buddha nature, like demons.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

climb-up
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:29 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:02 pm
climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:33 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:19 pm
Guru yoga is to absorb the guru’s qualities. I wonder if one wants to absorb the qualities of one’s enemies.
Right. Well, that's why I was hoping to get an explanation.
Specifically in guruyoga we want to connect with the guru's quality of having realized his or her own Buddha nature, and to have the realization that the guru, the buddha and ourselves have the same nature.

Of course, our enemies also have buddha nature; which is why I wonder if the practice has to do with realizing/connecting/finding-yourself-non-dual with that.
I don't know. Since the book is (IMO) pretty good and well referenced I am giving them the benefit of the doubt until/unless I hear something definitive otherwise (benefit of it being a true practice, not that I will practice it on my own without learning more or anything).

It definitely seems, to me, to be in line with "Carrying the Lama on the Path."
Everyone has Buddha nature, like demons.
Right...
...I feel like we're agreeing, but the tone feels like we're not.

Or, are you simply saying that it is not a real practice?
If so, is that because you do not believe it is really discussed in one of the dzogchen tantras?
It may not be, I've only seen it referenced in the book mentioned above, but everything else in that book seems to be very well referenced and they certainly do not seem to make anything up.

Miroku
Posts: 907
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Miroku » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:45 pm

climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:02 pm
climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:33 pm


Right. Well, that's why I was hoping to get an explanation.
Specifically in guruyoga we want to connect with the guru's quality of having realized his or her own Buddha nature, and to have the realization that the guru, the buddha and ourselves have the same nature.

Of course, our enemies also have buddha nature; which is why I wonder if the practice has to do with realizing/connecting/finding-yourself-non-dual with that.
I don't know. Since the book is (IMO) pretty good and well referenced I am giving them the benefit of the doubt until/unless I hear something definitive otherwise (benefit of it being a true practice, not that I will practice it on my own without learning more or anything).

It definitely seems, to me, to be in line with "Carrying the Lama on the Path."
Everyone has Buddha nature, like demons.
Right...
...I feel like we're agreeing, but the tone feels like we're not.
There is a reason why we do GY with vajradhara, or guru rinpoche or other great masters. They are enlightened and pure. When you get to the state of one taste and guru and enemy will be the same for you, then you no longer need to do GY really. So, I'd advise against it unless there is some high authority behind or a really good textual source for it.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.

~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

climb-up
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:38 am

Miroku wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:45 pm
So, I'd advise against it unless there is some high authority behind or a really good textual source for it.
Thank you.
I wasn't looking for advice in my practice so much as a textual reference, although I am enjoying sharing thoughts and ideas.

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1756
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:14 am

climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:02 pm
climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:33 pm


Right. Well, that's why I was hoping to get an explanation.
Specifically in guruyoga we want to connect with the guru's quality of having realized his or her own Buddha nature, and to have the realization that the guru, the buddha and ourselves have the same nature.

Of course, our enemies also have buddha nature; which is why I wonder if the practice has to do with realizing/connecting/finding-yourself-non-dual with that.
I don't know. Since the book is (IMO) pretty good and well referenced I am giving them the benefit of the doubt until/unless I hear something definitive otherwise (benefit of it being a true practice, not that I will practice it on my own without learning more or anything).

It definitely seems, to me, to be in line with "Carrying the Lama on the Path."
Everyone has Buddha nature, like demons.
Right...
...I feel like we're agreeing, but the tone feels like we're not.

Or, are you simply saying that it is not a real practice?
If so, is that because you do not believe it is really discussed in one of the dzogchen tantras?
It may not be, I've only seen it referenced in the book mentioned above, but everything else in that book seems to be very well referenced and they certainly do not seem to make anything up.
I didn’t read anything like that in Dzogchen Tantras. Malcolm would know better.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

climb-up
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:26 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:14 am
climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:02 pm

Everyone has Buddha nature, like demons.
Right...
...I feel like we're agreeing, but the tone feels like we're not.

Or, are you simply saying that it is not a real practice?
If so, is that because you do not believe it is really discussed in one of the dzogchen tantras?
It may not be, I've only seen it referenced in the book mentioned above, but everything else in that book seems to be very well referenced and they certainly do not seem to make anything up.
I didn’t read anything like that in Dzogchen Tantras. Malcolm would know better.
That precisely what I was wondering about in the OP.
You say that you haven't read anything like this. Have they all been translated? (and/or do you read Tibetan ...basically, have you read them all?)

Do you think Malcolm searches his name, or should I PM him?

User avatar
Virgo
Global Moderator
Posts: 3502
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Virgo » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:50 am

climb-up wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:26 am

Do you think Malcolm searches his name, or should I PM him?
That would probably be a little odd if he did.

I would pm.

Kevin..

climb-up
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:22 am

Virgo wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:50 am
climb-up wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:26 am

Do you think Malcolm searches his name, or should I PM him?
That would probably be a little odd if he did.

I would pm.

Kevin..
Would it? He's so popular 'round here I thought it might make sense.
On another board I'm on there where some popular go-to folks who would always show up if there name was mentioned ...I thought that was thing.
I'll PM him.

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1756
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:30 pm

climb-up wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:26 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:14 am
climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:29 pm

Right...
...I feel like we're agreeing, but the tone feels like we're not.

Or, are you simply saying that it is not a real practice?
If so, is that because you do not believe it is really discussed in one of the dzogchen tantras?
It may not be, I've only seen it referenced in the book mentioned above, but everything else in that book seems to be very well referenced and they certainly do not seem to make anything up.
I didn’t read anything like that in Dzogchen Tantras. Malcolm would know better.
That precisely what I was wondering about in the OP.
You say that you haven't read anything like this. Have they all been translated? (and/or do you read Tibetan ...basically, have you read them all?)

Do you think Malcolm searches his name, or should I PM him?
Yes. I believe all of them have now. Between Wilkinsen and Smith.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1756
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:31 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:30 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:26 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:14 am

I didn’t read anything like that in Dzogchen Tantras. Malcolm would know better.
That precisely what I was wondering about in the OP.
You say that you haven't read anything like this. Have they all been translated? (and/or do you read Tibetan ...basically, have you read them all?)

Do you think Malcolm searches his name, or should I PM him?
Yes. I believe all of them have now. Between Wilkinsen and Smith.
The only ritual related item in there is a brief reference to some mantras. The tantra related with Ekajati is not translated, but that’s the 18th. And it’s aboit Ekajati.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28725
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:53 pm

climb-up wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:44 am
Hi,

First of all, my apologies, I may have asked this in the past. If I hadn't, then I had meant to,but I cannot find it through the search function.

I recently read (in "Beyond Words" by Judith Allen and Julia Lawless) that one of the Dzogchen Tantras recommends the pracatice of guruyoga with one's enemies as a practice to overcoming attachment and aversion. I've heard of this practice before.

Does anyone know what the Tantra is and if it is translated in english?
I have no idea what they are talking about.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

climb-up
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:28 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:30 pm

Yes. I believe all of them have now. Between Wilkinsen and Smith.
Oh! I didn't realize.
That does make the total lack of familiarity with this more suspect than I had initially thought.
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:53 pm

I have no idea what they are talking about.
Well huh!
With that, and Crazywisdom's quote above I am doubting this now. Interestingly there were footnotes and references for almost everything in the book, but not this.
I wonder if I can find either of their e-mails...

EDIT: I see that one of the authors has recently passed away. I did send n e-mail to the other author, Juli Lawless (hopefully it's an accurate address) and I'll keep folks updated if I get response.

climb-up
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?

Post by climb-up » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:52 pm

Well I e-mailed Julia Lawless, who was not only nice enough to e-mail me back but also to check in with Elio Guarisco in regards to it.

Unfortunately the section of the book in question was written by Julia's co-author, who has passed away, and Elio was not familiar with the practice so, unless anyone comes up with something, that seems to be the end of conversation ...for now.

:anjali:

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: deff, Leif, Nicholas Weeks, Nick r, Tiago Simões and 64 guests