Who can read Dzogchen books?

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pael
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Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by pael » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:25 pm

Who can read Dzogchen books?
From Wisdom Publications?
Who is allowed to read them?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

Norwegian
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Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by Norwegian » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:45 pm

pael wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:25 pm
Who can read Dzogchen books?
From Wisdom Publications?
Who is allowed to read them?
"books", and "them" is very vague. Not all Dzogchen books are similar. It depends on content.

But in general, if you want to read about Dzogchen if it isn't a basic introduction, but something from a tantra or a terma cycle, then you need at least direct introduction from a qualified Dzogchen master. Or in the case of material like thogal etc. then you should have received that first from a qualified Dzogchen master. So direct introduction and transmission of the relevant text would be normal procedure.

tatpurusa
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Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by tatpurusa » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:58 pm

You can read any Dzogchen books publically available that have been published with the authorization of an authentic Dzogchen master.

Take the example of Heart Drops of Dhamakaya by Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche based on a practice text written by Shardza Rinpoche.
It openly writes about all aspects of Dzogchen, even Thodgal.

You can be sure that its publication has been authorized by Yeshe Walmo (the main protector of Bon Dzogchen teachings) personally.

So you can read it, but please do not think you are authorized to do advanced practices described in this text without introduction and guidance by a qualified Dzogchen master!!!

So read them, but look for a qualified master and get introduction, lung and guidance if you are interested in practice.

Restricted texts published without the explicit authorization of a qualified master should not be read without authorization, transmission or initiation.

tp

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Malcolm
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Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:14 pm

pael wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:25 pm
Who can read Dzogchen books?
From Wisdom Publications?
Who is allowed to read them?
Anyone with cash.

The question is, should you read them? It very much depends on the book in question.

In general, if you do not have Dzogchen transmission, then it is best not to read them, even if they have been published by someone who has a reputation as a qualified guru a.k.a, Dzogchen master (interestingly, this term, "Dzogchen master," does not exist in Tibetan).
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Lukeinaz
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by Lukeinaz » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:16 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:45 pm
pael wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:25 pm
Who can read Dzogchen books?
From Wisdom Publications?
Who is allowed to read them?
"books", and "them" is very vague. Not all Dzogchen books are similar. It depends on content.

But in general, if you want to read about Dzogchen if it isn't a basic introduction, but something from a tantra or a terma cycle, then you need at least direct introduction from a qualified Dzogchen master. Or in the case of material like thogal etc. then you should have received that first from a qualified Dzogchen master. So direct introduction and transmission of the relevant text would be normal procedure.
is lung generally suficient to read and practice thogal etc. without specufic guidance from a master?
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

tatpurusa
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Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by tatpurusa » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:25 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:16 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:45 pm
pael wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:25 pm
Who can read Dzogchen books?
From Wisdom Publications?
Who is allowed to read them?
"books", and "them" is very vague. Not all Dzogchen books are similar. It depends on content.

But in general, if you want to read about Dzogchen if it isn't a basic introduction, but something from a tantra or a terma cycle, then you need at least direct introduction from a qualified Dzogchen master. Or in the case of material like thogal etc. then you should have received that first from a qualified Dzogchen master. So direct introduction and transmission of the relevant text would be normal procedure.
is lung generally suficient to read and practice thogal etc. without specufic guidance from a master?
For the practice personal instructions and guidance are essential. You can do reading but it is by no means enough.

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Malcolm
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Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:33 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:16 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:45 pm
pael wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:25 pm
Who can read Dzogchen books?
From Wisdom Publications?
Who is allowed to read them?
"books", and "them" is very vague. Not all Dzogchen books are similar. It depends on content.

But in general, if you want to read about Dzogchen if it isn't a basic introduction, but something from a tantra or a terma cycle, then you need at least direct introduction from a qualified Dzogchen master. Or in the case of material like thogal etc. then you should have received that first from a qualified Dzogchen master. So direct introduction and transmission of the relevant text would be normal procedure.
is lung generally suficient to read and practice thogal etc. without specufic guidance from a master?
Bad idea.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Lukeinaz
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by Lukeinaz » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:38 pm

Thanks guys.
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

pael
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by pael » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:06 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:14 pm
pael wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:25 pm
Who can read Dzogchen books?
From Wisdom Publications?
Who is allowed to read them?
Anyone with cash.

The question is, should you read them? It very much depends on the book in question.

In general, if you do not have Dzogchen transmission, then it is best not to read them, even if they have been published by someone who has a reputation as a qualified guru a.k.a, Dzogchen master (interestingly, this term, "Dzogchen master," does not exist in Tibetan).
Is direct introduction enough?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

Norwegian
Posts: 1471
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by Norwegian » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:28 pm

pael wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:06 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:14 pm
pael wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:25 pm
Who can read Dzogchen books?
From Wisdom Publications?
Who is allowed to read them?
Anyone with cash.

The question is, should you read them? It very much depends on the book in question.

In general, if you do not have Dzogchen transmission, then it is best not to read them, even if they have been published by someone who has a reputation as a qualified guru a.k.a, Dzogchen master (interestingly, this term, "Dzogchen master," does not exist in Tibetan).
Is direct introduction enough?
Did you not read what was written above, and what Malcolm said in his post that you just cited, and further up in the thread? It depends on the book.

There are many different kinds of Dzogchen books, but they are not all the same. It depends on what kind of Dzogchen book they are. Certainly books containing thogal should be left alone until you've received instructions on thogal.

pemachophel
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Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by pemachophel » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:51 pm

Pael,

IME, for both Vajrayana and Dzogchen, work with a qualified Teacher and follow Their instructions. Don't try to take any shortcuts. In Dharma, this doesn't work and actually may set you back. Do it the right way and the results are assured.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

pael
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by pael » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:05 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:28 pm
pael wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:06 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:14 pm


Anyone with cash.

The question is, should you read them? It very much depends on the book in question.

In general, if you do not have Dzogchen transmission, then it is best not to read them, even if they have been published by someone who has a reputation as a qualified guru a.k.a, Dzogchen master (interestingly, this term, "Dzogchen master," does not exist in Tibetan).
Is direct introduction enough?
Did you not read what was written above, and what Malcolm said in his post that you just cited, and further up in the thread? It depends on the book.

There are many different kinds of Dzogchen books, but they are not all the same. It depends on what kind of Dzogchen book they are. Certainly books containing thogal should be left alone until you've received instructions on thogal.
I don't know which books from Wisdom Pubs I may read? Any other restriction than thogal after DI? How about lung? I can give book list.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

pael
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by pael » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:26 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:51 pm
Pael,

IME, for both Vajrayana and Dzogchen, work with a qualified Teacher and follow Their instructions. Don't try to take any shortcuts. In Dharma, this doesn't work and actually may set you back. Do it the right way and the results are assured.
ChNN is in parinirvana. No more Webcast. Books are only way to deepen knowledge for now.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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javier.espinoza.t
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Location: Chile

Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:41 pm

pael wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:26 pm
pemachophel wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:51 pm
Pael,

IME, for both Vajrayana and Dzogchen, work with a qualified Teacher and follow Their instructions. Don't try to take any shortcuts. In Dharma, this doesn't work and actually may set you back. Do it the right way and the results are assured.
ChNN is in parinirvana. No more Webcast. Books are only way to deepen knowledge for now.
nope, ChNN isn't the only holder of the transmissions.

particularity of ChNN is that he goes stright to the core/essence and gives the transmissions; other holders might not apply that aproach.
what are you doing

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Sennin
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Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by Sennin » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:04 pm

I think a classic sacred text like the Precious Treasury of Pith Instructions; man ngag mdzod
for example can be read by anyone who has Dzogchen transmission. And since in the colophon the author signs his name as Longchen Rabjam, I think it's correct to designate this text as belonging to the upadesha class.
Namo Guru Bhyaḥ

climb-up
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by climb-up » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:13 am

pael wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:26 pm
No more Webcast.
There are Dzogchen teachers who do webcasts, podcasts and various other multi-media teachings.
Books are only way to deepen knowledge for now.
...or teachings from a qualified living teacher.

oldbob
Posts: 730
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Who can read Dzogchen books?

Post by oldbob » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:47 pm

climb-up wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:13 am
pael wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:26 pm
No more Webcast.
There are Dzogchen teachers who do webcasts, podcasts and various other multi-media teachings.
Books are only way to deepen knowledge for now.
...or teachings from a qualified living teacher.
:good:
Good post and good posts all.

Again, this sort of question is best asked of your teacher.

If you don't have a teacher yet, then look around.

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8917

ChNNR gave quasi - real time DI live via the internet, and perhaps other Dzogchen Masters do also.

https://dharmasun.org/courses/38th-annu ... ar-online/

Much more effective than reading a book on Dzogchen.

Note that this is free / what you can afford. Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche is a qualified Dzogchen Master - His on-line Shedra is a true door into the Teachings of the Buddha. If you attend his seminar - your take-away will be wonderful. For me he is like a Dharma grandpa - unending kindness and blessings of Dharma - doesn't get better than this.

Once you have received DI from someone like Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche then when you read a book on Dzogchen you will understand it from the point of view of the experience of Dzogchen and this is completely different than the understanding that comes from understanding the dictionary definitions and grammar rules of a language.

Also, there is something that is called twilight language: use of words that have one meaning in normal use and another in the specialized context of Dzogchen. The DI experience helps you to recognize and understand the specialized usages of twilight language. Having a Dzogchen Master explain the twilight meanings allows you to understand the dictionary meanings in a new and different way informed by the experience of DI.

This is explained here: (scroll down to read)

http://www.academia.edu/31065102/_The_D ... n_Buddhism_

and here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_language

also:

https://www.amazon.com/Twilight-Languag ... 0700702342

Very expensive on Amazon - maybe your library can order it.

This is a very interesting, must read, book, that puts forth the theory that the historical Buddha taught Dzogchen through the use of twilight language. You do not need DI to read this book. :smile:

:heart:

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