How do we know our practice is working?

Arupajhana7
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How do we know our practice is working?

Post by Arupajhana7 »

So I am sure that this question may be dismissed as "missing the point" by looking for results... I am at least aware of this potential setback.

But I am sill naturally wondering how I might know if my practice is having the intended effect.

For Dzogchen I am really just doing the Short Thun practice from Chogyal Namkhia Norbu's Thun book. It is the only one I feel confident doing on my own.

I know practice isn't about experiences or "success" ultimately but are there some things that can be looked at to know if we are making progress relatively?

What markers or signs can be seen as encouragement that I am on the right track?

Any feedback is appreciated.

Thank you
Leif
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by Leif »

Your practice is working if you have less problems in life.
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heart
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by heart »

Leif wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:58 pm Your practice is working if you have less problems in life.
I never noticed that :tongue:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by heart »

Arupajhana7 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:24 am So I am sure that this question may be dismissed as "missing the point" by looking for results... I am at least aware of this potential setback.

But I am sill naturally wondering how I might know if my practice is having the intended effect.

For Dzogchen I am really just doing the Short Thun practice from Chogyal Namkhia Norbu's Thun book. It is the only one I feel confident doing on my own.

I know practice isn't about experiences or "success" ultimately but are there some things that can be looked at to know if we are making progress relatively?

What markers or signs can be seen as encouragement that I am on the right track?

Any feedback is appreciated.

Thank you
If you gain confidence in the natural state through your practice, then it is working. However, you have to give it time. It takes a long time learning to do a practice properly. If you want to ask specific questions about the short tun I would get in contact with an SMS teacher.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
jet.urgyen
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by jet.urgyen »

Arupajhana7 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:24 am So I am sure that this question may be dismissed as "missing the point" by looking for results... I am at least aware of this potential setback.

But I am sill naturally wondering how I might know if my practice is having the intended effect.

For Dzogchen I am really just doing the Short Thun practice from Chogyal Namkhia Norbu's Thun book. It is the only one I feel confident doing on my own.

I know practice isn't about experiences or "success" ultimately but are there some things that can be looked at to know if we are making progress relatively?

What markers or signs can be seen as encouragement that I am on the right track?

Any feedback is appreciated.

Thank you
Dzogchen practice is not a sadhana. Short thun, medium, etc. are means to, but aren't the real point.

What is needed is to look inside, to have senses open, etc. It is better to remember how direct introduction was like to you, that's the guideline. Words aren't much useful here.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Grigoris
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by Grigoris »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:51 pmDzogchen practice is not a sadhana. Short thun, medium, etc. are means to, but aren't the real point.
All sadhana are a means and not an end. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by Sherab Rigdrol »

Arupajhana7 wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:24 am So I am sure that this question may be dismissed as "missing the point" by looking for results... I am at least aware of this potential setback.

But I am sill naturally wondering how I might know if my practice is having the intended effect.

For Dzogchen I am really just doing the Short Thun practice from Chogyal Namkhia Norbu's Thun book. It is the only one I feel confident doing on my own.

I know practice isn't about experiences or "success" ultimately but are there some things that can be looked at to know if we are making progress relatively?

What markers or signs can be seen as encouragement that I am on the right track?

Any feedback is appreciated.

Thank you

When you’ve moved onto the third statement of Garab Dorje.

As far as the yidam section, less obstacles in your life and less emotional upheaval.
LoveFromColorado
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by LoveFromColorado »

I am certainly a small practitioner who is not nearly as well taught or experienced as many on this forum, but I do have a couple of thoughts that came to mind in reading this question. Please forgive me if I am off base.

From my limited understanding, the basic hallmark of "progress" on a spiritual path is avoiding the ten unwholesome actions and embracing the ten virtuous actions. Even more broadly speaking, if you see compassion and wisdom increasing in your life, then you can have some degree of confidence that you are making "progress" on the path.

I think even the concern about "progress" is auspicious and telling in and of itself.

Beyond these things, however, is an understanding that enlightenment can be moment to moment and indeed may take shape over the course over a number of lifetimes. The concern is more for the here and now with an eye on the fact that this human experience is precious and thus spiritual practice must be "done" while the sun shines, so to speak. I know you realize that based on your original post so do not mean to insult your intelligence!

So while there are likely to be specific results as mentioned above by more experienced posters, I would offer encouragement from my minimal understanding that even your question is a good thing. In the end, any individual practice is just a name, a label, in and of itself. Even "enlightenment", "success", "progress", etc. are just names and not measurable in a definitive, permanent way. There is a much bigger picture involved that is beyond these concepts and it sounds like you are certainly "moving" in that direction, so to speak. It is easy to get caught in particulars and get stressed about labels. Trust in the Dharma, the Guru, and knowing that you "excel" on the path as much as karma will allow brings me peace, at least.

Again, my apologies for my limited understanding but I hope these thoughts are useful. If not, please feel free to disregard, of course, and as I said above, I certainly do not mean to insult your intelligence. You are also more taught than I am I'm sure :)
Malcolm
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by Malcolm »

LoveFromColorado wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:48 pm I am certainly a small practitioner who is not nearly as well taught or experienced as many on this forum, but I do have a couple of thoughts that came to mind in reading this question. Please forgive me if I am off base.

From my limited understanding, the basic hallmark of "progress" on a spiritual path is avoiding the ten unwholesome actions and embracing the ten virtuous actions. Even more broadly speaking, if you see compassion and wisdom increasing in your life, then you can have some degree of confidence that you are making "progress" on the path.
In Dzogchen there is no need to engage in virtuous deeds —— but the sign of practice is that one has less inclination to engage in nonvirtuous deeds.

Beyond these things, however, is an understanding that enlightenment can be moment to moment and indeed may take shape over the course over a number of lifetimes.

No. Awakening is an irreversible state.
LoveFromColorado
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by LoveFromColorado »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:15 pm
LoveFromColorado wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:48 pm I am certainly a small practitioner who is not nearly as well taught or experienced as many on this forum, but I do have a couple of thoughts that came to mind in reading this question. Please forgive me if I am off base.

From my limited understanding, the basic hallmark of "progress" on a spiritual path is avoiding the ten unwholesome actions and embracing the ten virtuous actions. Even more broadly speaking, if you see compassion and wisdom increasing in your life, then you can have some degree of confidence that you are making "progress" on the path.
In Dzogchen there is no need to engage in virtuous deeds —— but the sign of practice is that one has less inclination to engage in nonvirtuous deeds.


These thoughts came from Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche's teaching just a week ago. Not arguing with you, just providing where I got them from. :)
Beyond these things, however, is an understanding that enlightenment can be moment to moment and indeed may take shape over the course over a number of lifetimes.

No. Awakening is an irreversible state.
Thanks Malcolm. My information here was received from a teaching by Anam Thubten a few weeks ago in which he made mention that one can experience enlightenment in any given moment. Do you have a source that states otherwise? I ask this purely out of interest, not contention.
Malcolm
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by Malcolm »

LoveFromColorado wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:26 pm
Beyond these things, however, is an understanding that enlightenment can be moment to moment and indeed may take shape over the course over a number of lifetimes.

No. Awakening is an irreversible state.
Thanks Malcolm. My information here was received from a teaching by Anam Thubten a couple of weeks ago in which he made mention that one can experience enlightenment in any given moment. Do you have a source that states otherwise? I ask this purely out of interest, not contention.
One can experience awakening in any given moment, and when you do, you are a first stage bodhisattva. But the idea that you can experience awakening and then return the state of an ordinary, unawakened being is very mistaken-- it represents a complete confusion of the paths and stages. Once one has experienced awakening, one joins the rank of the āryas. On the other hand, it is possible to experience a similitude of awakening below what is called "the path of seeing." This similitude of awakening, however, is still conceptual.
LoveFromColorado
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by LoveFromColorado »

Thanks Malcolm!
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by jet.urgyen »

Grigoris wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:02 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:51 pmDzogchen practice is not a sadhana. Short thun, medium, etc. are means to, but aren't the real point.
All sadhana are a means and not an end. ;)
True :P
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
Arupajhana7
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by Arupajhana7 »

Thank you everyone.

It seems some things to look for (in no particular order) are:

1. less obstacles

2. More peaceful mind states

3. Increased reluctance to engaging in unwholesome behavior

4. engaging in more wholesome behaviors (though not necessarily in Dzogchen)

6. Confidence in the ability to rest in the natural state.


These sound like long term effects?

So I am assuming it will not be easy to see dramatic effects over short periods of time.

Also, if these things do not seem to be happening after some time, what should I do?

How do you know if you are able to rest in the natural state?.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Arupajhana7 wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:42 am Thank you everyone.

It seems some things to look for (in no particular order) are:

1. less obstacles

2. More peaceful mind states

3. Increased reluctance to engaging in unwholesome behavior

4. engaging in more wholesome behaviors (though not necessarily in Dzogchen)

6. Confidence in the ability to rest in the natural state.


These sound like long term effects?

So I am assuming it will not be easy to see dramatic effects over short periods of time.

Also, if these things do not seem to be happening after some time, what should I do?

How do you know if you are able to rest in the natural state?.
You can have quite a nice "signs" (you feel good, practice goes good, you are super nice etc) after few days of practicing and then it goes to hell and the real challange starts because you start diging into the habits.

Dont' look for them. Trust your master and your practice. Believe in the effectivity of the practice, have a little faith, apply it and it will work. If you have doubts clarify them with a teacher or with a more experienced vajra sibling. It is always good to check if your motivation is correct and to develop mindfulness.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
LoveFromColorado
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by LoveFromColorado »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:15 pm In Dzogchen there is no need to engage in virtuous deeds
Hi again everyone! I have been reflecting on this statement over the past couple of days and I must confess that I'm having a difficult time coming to grips with it. For example, the ninth virtuous deed is to give up wishing harm for others and instead cultivate compassion. The tenth would be to give up wrong views and establish oneself in the correct view. And so on... avoid killing, renounce stealing, practice compassion, speak truthfully, etc.

How can one not engage in these and expect inner peace, awakening, etc.? For example, if you have resources and come across someone who is in true need and withhold those resources, then how can your mind be calm?

Beyond that, it seems to go against some basic teachings regarding the Bodhisattva path and even the kindness of the guru.

Thanks in advance!
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by Malcolm »

LoveFromColorado wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:15 pm In Dzogchen there is no need to engage in virtuous deeds
Hi again everyone! I have been reflecting on this statement over the past couple of days and I must confess that I'm having a difficult time coming to grips with it. For example, the ninth virtuous deed is to give up wishing harm for others and instead cultivate compassion. The tenth would be to give up wrong views and establish oneself in the correct view. And so on... avoid killing, renounce stealing, practice compassion, speak truthfully, etc.

How can one not engage in these and expect inner peace, awakening, etc.? For example, if you have resources and come across someone who is in true need and withhold those resources, then how can your mind be calm?

Beyond that, it seems to go against some basic teachings regarding the Bodhisattva path and even the kindness of the guru.

Thanks in advance!
Dzogchen is a path beyond mind. Positive and negative deeds are created by the mind. If you really want to understand this point, you really need to study with someone who is an authentic Dzogchen master. Be careful, because there are not many of those around. But there are many people who use the reputation of Dzogchen to sell themselves as teachers, putting out a deer's tail, but selling donkey meat instead.
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by anjali »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:42 pm Dzogchen is a path beyond mind. Positive and negative deeds are created by the mind.
While this is certainly true, I can't imagine that you are advocating that one ignore the law of cause and effect. Otherwise, that would be a case of conduct getting lost in the view, no?
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Lukeinaz
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by Lukeinaz »

anjali wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:03 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:42 pm Dzogchen is a path beyond mind. Positive and negative deeds are created by the mind.
While this is certainly true, I can't imagine that you are advocating that one ignore the law of cause and effect. Otherwise, that would be a case of conduct getting lost in the view, no?
if dzogchen, our real nature, is beyond cause and effect, what is left to be ignored?
LoveFromColorado
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Re: How do we know our practice is working?

Post by LoveFromColorado »

Lukeinaz wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:32 pm
anjali wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:03 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:42 pm Dzogchen is a path beyond mind. Positive and negative deeds are created by the mind.
While this is certainly true, I can't imagine that you are advocating that one ignore the law of cause and effect. Otherwise, that would be a case of conduct getting lost in the view, no?
if dzogchen, our real nature, is beyond cause and effect, what is left to be ignored?
Thanks all for the conversation. I have read The Crystal and the Way of Light as well as The Source and have some intellectual understanding of this discussion but have not received a direct transmission from ChNN.

That said, if I were to attend a teaching of ChNN's and in the middle of it jumped on stage and physically attacked him then certainly someone would stop me. If I said, "Well, this is all beyond mind" surely the response would not be, "Oh yeah, you're right, sorry." It feels that there is something bordering on nihilism here in this conversation that is out of balance. I get that our experience and mind are dependent arising and that rigpa is beyond both but that does not seem to address the delicate balance of interacting with our experiences. With this pretense, it would seem that even regarding someone as a guru would be false. Why do guru yoga then? Why make practices for ChNN's health if we merely stop at rigpa being beyond experience and mind? There would be no point - surely there is something deeper here?

Does that make sense, and can anyone shed any light here?
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