Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

[Natan]

Wondering is anyone aware of a yidam that takes the Dzogchen or Yangti tantra style method as completion stage?

[lelopa]

...

[Malcolm]

Wondering is anyone aware of a yidam that takes the Dzogchen or Yangti tantra style method as completion stage?

Troma.

[Natan]

Wondering is anyone aware of a yidam that takes the Dzogchen or Yangti tantra style method as completion stage?

Troma.

Cool. Tnx

[treehuggingoctopus]

Wondering is anyone aware of a yidam that takes the Dzogchen or Yangti tantra style method as completion stage?

Troma.

Fascinating. So it does make sense to say that Togal is the completion stage of Throma?

Where would Throma tregchod be in that model?

[Malcolm]

Wondering is anyone aware of a yidam that takes the Dzogchen or Yangti tantra style method as completion stage?

Troma.

Fascinating. So it does make sense to say that Togal is the completion stage of Throma?

Where would Throma tregchod be in that model?

Troma has both.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Thanks! By saying that Togal is the dzogrim there, are you suggesting that it literally comes into play where more generally a tsalung practice would be used?

[Malcolm]

Thanks! By saying that Togal is the dzogrim there, are you suggesting that it literally comes into play where more generally a tsalung practice would be used?

Yes.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Thanks! By saying that Togal is the dzogrim there, are you suggesting that it literally comes into play where more generally a tsalung practice would be used?

Yes.

Thanks!

[conebeckham]

Although you could argue KonChok Chidu (or even LaDrup Tigle Gyachen) are not yidam practices, in some sense they are Lama practices that function as yidam practices, and both of these definitely have Togal as well. Konchok Chidu has everything, soup to nuts...

[heart]

Although you could argue KonChok Chidu (or even LaDrup Tigle Gyachen) are not yidam practices, in some sense they are Lama practices that function as yidam practices, and both of these definitely have Togal as well. Konchok Chidu has everything, soup to nuts...

Not only Konchok Chidu, most Nyingtik cycles.

/magnus

[pema tsultrim]

Does troma also have tsa lung? Specifically the Dudjom troma?

[Malcolm]

Does troma also have tsa lung? Specifically the Dudjom troma?

No.

[PeterC]

Although you could argue KonChok Chidu (or even LaDrup Tigle Gyachen) are not yidam practices, in some sense they are Lama practices that function as yidam practices, and both of these definitely have Togal as well. Konchok Chidu has everything, soup to nuts...

Probably dumb question but...when you say Lama practices (as distinct from Yidam practices), are you distinguishing based on the classification of the figure being practiced, or on the associated completion stage practices? (Since if we're talking about terma it's all outer/inner/secret/most secret guru yoga of the guru appearing in different forms anyway)

[Pema Rigdzin]

In Dudjom Tersar, is there a specific guru yoga outside of the ngondro versions that Dzogchen is practiced in, or is Dzogchen typically practiced in the context of the completion stage of yidam practice? Or some other option?

[Malcolm]

In Dudjom Tersar, is there a specific guru yoga outside of the ngondro versions that Dzogchen is practiced in, or is Dzogchen typically practiced in the context of the completion stage of yidam practice? Or some other option?

In troma, yes. In other dudjom tersar systems, no.

[Pema Rigdzin]

In Dudjom Tersar, is there a specific guru yoga outside of the ngondro versions that Dzogchen is practiced in, or is Dzogchen typically practiced in the context of the completion stage of yidam practice? Or some other option?

In troma, yes. In other dudjom tersar systems, no.

Sorry, I'm not clear on what you're saying yes and no to exactly. Could you briefly clarify?

[Natan]

In Tröma, Guru is the yidam and the bindu. In other sadhanas, there’s a separate guru yoga.

[Pema Rigdzin]

In Tröma, Guru is the yidam and the bindu. In other sadhanas, there’s a separate guru yoga.

Thanks. Are these other sadhanas typically similar to the ngondro format of guru yoga, or do they tend to be more like ladrup practices where one visualizes oneself as the lama, ie Longchen Nyingtig’s Tigle Gyachen?

I personally have mostly practiced contemplation in the context of the completion stage of the short Tersar ngondro guru yoga (though I have occasionally alternated with one of ChNN’s guru yoga practices when I’ve felt like it), so I’m curious what context non-Troma Dudjom Ter practitioners practice Dzogchen in.

[Natan]

Otherwise there are many guru methods like Dorje Dragpotsal. In the strict tantric meaning, yidam was always the guru yoga.