Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Crazywisdom
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Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:58 am

Let’s not forget the Shitro and Yangti.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:37 pm

Also ch 13 of Longchenpa’s Dispelling the Darkness of the Ten Directions.

The 17 tantra specifically mention Vajrasattva, Padma Heruka (Hayagriva) and Vajrapani.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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conebeckham
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Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by conebeckham » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:50 pm

PeterC wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:53 am
conebeckham wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:35 pm
Although you could argue KonChok Chidu (or even LaDrup Tigle Gyachen) are not yidam practices, in some sense they are Lama practices that function as yidam practices, and both of these definitely have Togal as well. Konchok Chidu has everything, soup to nuts...
Probably dumb question but...when you say Lama practices (as distinct from Yidam practices), are you distinguishing based on the classification of the figure being practiced, or on the associated completion stage practices? (Since if we're talking about terma it's all outer/inner/secret/most secret guru yoga of the guru appearing in different forms anyway)
These sadhanas are classified by the tertons themselves, usually. So.....from amongst the sadhanas of the three roots, you have the Lama, the Yidam, and the Dakini sadhanas. The bigger terma cycles that include deity sadhanas usually have all three.

For instance, in Longchen Nyingthik the basic LaDrup is Rigdzin Dupa. There are other Lama practices as well. In Dudjom Tersar, I think it would be Tsokyi Thuk Tik.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Malcolm
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Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:44 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:27 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:24 am
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:10 am
In Dudjom Tersar, is there a specific guru yoga outside of the ngondro versions that Dzogchen is practiced in, or is Dzogchen typically practiced in the context of the completion stage of yidam practice? Or some other option?
In troma, yes. In other dudjom tersar systems, no.
Sorry, I'm not clear on what you're saying yes and no to exactly. Could you briefly clarify?
In Troma, there is a special Guru Rinpoche guru yoga one practices in connection with those practices.

dechenpa
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Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by dechenpa » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:22 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:35 pm
Although you could argue KonChok Chidu (or even LaDrup Tigle Gyachen) are not yidam practices, in some sense they are Lama practices that function as yidam practices, and both of these definitely have Togal as well. Konchok Chidu has everything, soup to nuts...
This is true but according to Tsewang Norbu's instructions, trekcho nor togal are not part of the Konchok Chidu development or completion stage, as OP asked. They are separate practices. Development, completion, trekcho and togal are the 'four vajras' of Konchok Chidu.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:44 pm
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:27 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:24 am


In troma, yes. In other dudjom tersar systems, no.
Sorry, I'm not clear on what you're saying yes and no to exactly. Could you briefly clarify?
In Troma, there is a special Guru Rinpoche guru yoga one practices in connection with those practices.
That must be part of the longer sadhana
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

PeterC
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Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by PeterC » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:12 am

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:50 pm

For instance, in Longchen Nyingthik the basic LaDrup is Rigdzin Dupa. There are other Lama practices as well. In Dudjom Tersar, I think it would be Tsokyi Thuk Tik.
Ah I see what you mean. In the Tsokyi thuk tik cycle the secret and most secret practices are forms of the lama, and not forms of dakinis.

Malcolm
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Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:28 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:44 pm
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:27 am


Sorry, I'm not clear on what you're saying yes and no to exactly. Could you briefly clarify?
In Troma, there is a special Guru Rinpoche guru yoga one practices in connection with those practices.
That must be part of the longer sadhana
No, it is an entirely separate practice. The liturgy is quite short.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:29 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:28 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:44 pm


In Troma, there is a special Guru Rinpoche guru yoga one practices in connection with those practices.
That must be part of the longer sadhana
No, it is an entirely separate practice. The liturgy is quite short.
I see. I didn’t see that in the daily sadhanas.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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conebeckham
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Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by conebeckham » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:40 pm

dechenpa wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:22 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:35 pm
Although you could argue KonChok Chidu (or even LaDrup Tigle Gyachen) are not yidam practices, in some sense they are Lama practices that function as yidam practices, and both of these definitely have Togal as well. Konchok Chidu has everything, soup to nuts...
This is true but according to Tsewang Norbu's instructions, trekcho nor togal are not part of the Konchok Chidu development or completion stage, as OP asked. They are separate practices. Development, completion, trekcho and togal are the 'four vajras' of Konchok Chidu.
Ah, yes, that's a good point esp. in relation to the OP's question, now that I see it.
Probably not the place to talk about the unique completion state of KonChok ChiDu here....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:51 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:40 pm
dechenpa wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:22 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:35 pm
Although you could argue KonChok Chidu (or even LaDrup Tigle Gyachen) are not yidam practices, in some sense they are Lama practices that function as yidam practices, and both of these definitely have Togal as well. Konchok Chidu has everything, soup to nuts...
This is true but according to Tsewang Norbu's instructions, trekcho nor togal are not part of the Konchok Chidu development or completion stage, as OP asked. They are separate practices. Development, completion, trekcho and togal are the 'four vajras' of Konchok Chidu.
Ah, yes, that's a good point esp. in relation to the OP's question, now that I see it.
Probably not the place to talk about the unique completion state of KonChok ChiDu here....

Generally speaking, when including Dzogchen instructions in creation and completion, it is just fine to include them in the completion stage.

Sennin
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Re: Yidam w Togal as dzogrim

Post by Sennin » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:42 pm

Since the quintessential secret cycle depends on the intimate instructions of the Guru. I think it's correct to assert that any yidam from the HYT, even from Sarma would be effective.

Even so, the Ati Yoga vidyadharas say that to claim that the ultimate result is kayas with attributes is the fault of the secret cycle; because the pinnacle of all kayas is dharmakaya without features.
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

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