Dzogchen outside of Tantra

spaces
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Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by spaces »

Hello,

Do you know of anybody teaching Dzogchen without all those tantric preliminaries, deity dzogrim and kyerim, just plain Dzogchen, natural state meditation?
In my opinion, Dzogchen and Tantra are two separate things, second muddling the first. That is my opinion.
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by amanitamusc »

spaces wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:49 am Hello,

Do you know of anybody teaching Dzogchen without all those tantric preliminaries, deity dzogrim and kyerim, just plain Dzogchen, natural state meditation?
In my opinion, Dzogchen and Tantra are two separate things, second muddling the first. That is my opinion.
Do you base your opinion on experience?Welcome to DW.
fckw
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by fckw »

This question shows that the person asking it is not very familiar with neither Tantra nor Dzogchen. Tantric Ati-yoga and Dzogchen are same in essence. Guru-Yoga can be seen as direct introduction to the natural state. As many practitioners can attest, Tummo practice greatly enhances progress in Dzogchen. Some Dzogchen systems like the Bön A-Khrid contain preliminaries, meditation on the energy system, even dream yoga and much more as their essential practice instructions, a separation between "tantric" and "non-tantric" Dzogchen is simply not possible for those.

Having all that said, there are and were always a number of teachers though who simply never very strongly advertised the mantra- and visualisation-practice (maybe with the exception of guru-yoga) in comparison to Dzogchen practice. James Low for example seems to fit this category of teachers.
spaces
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by spaces »

Hi,

That's exactly what I want to say. Tantra, in purpose, is the same IMO as Dzogchen teachings (I stress here Dzogchen teachings). They are both provisional means to achieve ultimate goal. But that could be said of any religious practice.
Tantra developed as a system of practices based on using our imaginative-delusional dualistic patterns to make them more "refined", such as visualization of deities, mantras etc. But that wasn't existent over first few hundred years of history of Buddhism. It was invented later. Before that invention, Dzogchen was taught outside of Tantra as we understand Tantra today. It was much "simpler" practice, without all the cultural burden that came later.
But is there anyone teaching it in it's pure form nowadays? I made distinction between Tantra and Dzogchen as it is historically-provable distinction. To bad that, because of political games in Tibet, they became taught as a single way, single vehicle IMO.
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

spaces wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:01 amTantra developed as a system of practices based on using our imaginative-delusional dualistic patterns to make them more "refined", such as visualization of deities, mantras etc.
You honestly need to read up on tantra.
spaces wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:01 amBut that wasn't existent over first few hundred years of history of Buddhism. It was invented later. Before that invention, Dzogchen was taught outside of Tantra as we understand Tantra today. It was much "simpler" practice, without all the cultural burden that came later.
But is there anyone teaching it in it's pure form nowadays? I made distinction between Tantra and Dzogchen as it is historically-provable distinction. To bad that, because of political games in Tibet, they became taught as a single way, single vehicle IMO.
The distinction between Tantra and Dzogchen is not historically provable. If you want to use the historical narrative espoused by the Western academia (which is where proof counts for something -- as opposed to the traditional, "internal" narrative, which is one of revelation and does not really care about proving things), then Dzogchen develops from within Tantra, the latter clearly preceding the former (you can consult SvS: https://earlytibet.com/2008/01/08/early-dzogchen-i). Traditional narratives are more nuanced and more complex, and they clearly disagree with the Western scholarship here -- but they do not put it the way you put it, i.e., that there was a "pure Dzogchen" which later on got subsumed into Tantra because of "political games."

The "pure form" of Dzogchen taught in this world is not what you would want it to be, I am afraid. Having quoted Mipham on "the relationship between the three series of inner tantras," Kyabje Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche comments:
This passage demonstrates to what extent the three series of inner tantras are interrelated. In fact, practitioners of Dzogchen have always practiced unifying the essence of these three series. For this fundamental reason those who have taken up the Dzogchen teaching must understand precisely the characteristics of the view, meditation, behaviour and fruit of three series of inner tantras and be able to integrate their essential points in their practice of the profound path of Ati. (PV 174-175).
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spaces
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by spaces »

Tantra involves concept. Dzogchen doesn't. In this way Dzogchen predates Tantra - it is unmodified natural state.
I doubt that there was Tantra in Sidhartha Gautama's times. I doubt somebody was practicing yidam deity yoga or even guru yoga. Tantra is also Hindusm-influenced and vice versa (just look and Hindu and Buddhism -tantra deities forms - they are composed of same elements/style/color). Take a look here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra :
"Tantra (/ˈtʌntrə, ˈtæn-/; Sanskrit: तन्त्र, literally "loom, weave, system") denotes the esoteric traditions of Hinduism and Buddhism that co-developed most likely about the middle of the 1st millennium BC."
And here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana : "Tantric Buddhism can be traced back to groups of wandering yogis called Mahasiddhas (great adepts).[2] According to Reynolds (2007), the mahasiddhas date to the medieval period in the Northern Indian Subcontinent (3–13 cen. CE), and used methods that were radically different than those used in Buddhist monasteries including living in forests and caves and practiced meditation in charnel grounds similar to those practiced by Shaiva Kapalika ascetics.[3]"

Looks like Tantra wasn't part of Buddhism at all. It became it later. Besides there is no mention of Tantra in Sutras.
But Dzogchen, by Dzogchen, I don't mean lineage. I mean Natural State. Just plainly resting in Natural State - that was ultimate meaning of Sidhartha Gautama's teachings and there was no need for Tantra to transmit it. Why would there be one now? But it seems difficult to find people thinking that way. But where am I mistaken? Is there no viable reason to practice Dzogchen as a yana in itself?
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

spaces wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:01 am
But is there anyone teaching it in it's pure form nowadays? I made distinction between Tantra and Dzogchen as it is historically-provable distinction.
It is not so, from a text critical POV. The earliest, datable text we possess that uses the term “Dzogchen” is the Guhyagarbha, a tantra belonging to the mahayoga class.

What we can say for sure is that what we today call Dzogchen emerged out of a movement in 8th century that regarded the creation stage as optional.
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:02 pm
spaces wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:01 am
But is there anyone teaching it in it's pure form nowadays? I made distinction between Tantra and Dzogchen as it is historically-provable distinction.
It is not so, from a text critical POV. The earliest, datable text we possess that uses the term “Dzogchen” is the Guhyagarbha, a tantra belonging to the mahayoga class.

What we can say for sure is that what we today call Dzogchen emerged out of a movement in 8th century that regarded the creation stage as optional.
GGT belongs to the Ati class. It is the manifold tantra according to Longchenpa. Malcom = Zurpa. Nate = Longchenpa.

To conceptualize an ati lineage without deities is like walking a one legged dog.
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Natan
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by Natan »

spaces wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:49 am Hello,

Do you know of anybody teaching Dzogchen without all those tantric preliminaries, deity dzogrim and kyerim, just plain Dzogchen, natural state meditation?
In my opinion, Dzogchen and Tantra are two separate things, second muddling the first. That is my opinion.
What you and almost everyone here fails to realize is a tantra is a tapestry. It is a deeply woven structure.

Of course you can practice without separating kyerim and dzogrim. That possibility is there. It depends on you. You can even begin with the syllable A.

Tantric preliminaries are not mentioned in the GGT. The real preliminary is making offerings to one’s guruji and to receive empowerment. The text offers several variations on that.

The general preliminary is the mind generation, creation stage and recitation. Recitation has various options.

It is not about choose your own adventure. It about being honest and aware of oneself, the path and the result.

Guhyagarbha is the root tantra. The upadesha class of tantra are further explications, i.e., the pith instructions. The alternative classification system is Ati, pyiti, Yangti and m’Tha Chen.

No one should overlook this. Yangti and m’Tha Chen are like a no holds barred bar knuckle brawl. Throw everything at you.
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by Norwegian »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:12 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:02 pm
spaces wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:01 am
But is there anyone teaching it in it's pure form nowadays? I made distinction between Tantra and Dzogchen as it is historically-provable distinction.
It is not so, from a text critical POV. The earliest, datable text we possess that uses the term “Dzogchen” is the Guhyagarbha, a tantra belonging to the mahayoga class.

What we can say for sure is that what we today call Dzogchen emerged out of a movement in 8th century that regarded the creation stage as optional.
GGT belongs to the Ati class. It is the manifold tantra according to Longchenpa. Malcom = Zurpa. Nate = Longchenpa.

To conceptualize an ati lineage without deities is like walking a one legged dog.
Guhyagarbha is Mahayoga. This is very basic knowledge.
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by Natan »

Norwegian wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:12 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:02 pm

It is not so, from a text critical POV. The earliest, datable text we possess that uses the term “Dzogchen” is the Guhyagarbha, a tantra belonging to the mahayoga class.

What we can say for sure is that what we today call Dzogchen emerged out of a movement in 8th century that regarded the creation stage as optional.
GGT belongs to the Ati class. It is the manifold tantra according to Longchenpa. Malcom = Zurpa. Nate = Longchenpa.

To conceptualize an ati lineage without deities is like walking a one legged dog.
Guhyagarbha is Mahayoga. This is very basic knowledge.
According to the Zurpas. Unless you were with Khen Namdrol for the complete GGT from Longchenpa’s view that went on for 5 years, you wouldn’t know. Would you?
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by Natan »

Starting feel like samaya viol.

It sucks to be unique sometimes.

If you like your stodgy classifications go ahead.
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spaces
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by spaces »

I found an interesting POV I would like to cite here (this is by Lopon Tenzin Namdak from Bon, I made some parts of text underlined):

Many practitioners practise both Tantra, Kyerim, and Dzogchen. What can you say about the fruit in that case?


Lopon Lak:
Yes, you can't get 2 minds, sometimes this, sometimes that and in the end it makes it more difficult to reach the final goal. [Part ommited]

BUT THE ESSENTIAL PRACTICE IS DZOGCHEN

Dzogchen practitioners are able to integrate with any activity - shopping, whatever, there is no problem.

[Part ommited] Some people think that from the beginning you have to do this or that, or that if you don 't first become a Tantric practitioner you can 't get Dzogchen.

But Tantra is just the taste, just the beginning; how far you have to practise, with purpose. All your life should be integrated with Tantric practice for years, years. It takes a long time, so when would you be ready for Dzogchen?


YOU DON' T NEED TO PREPARE FOR DZOGCHEN WITH TANTRA, THERE IS NOT TIME !

[End of citation]

Dzogchen is simplicity - every master of Dzogchen agrees. Actually it's the actualization of fourth Noble Truth. The problem, in my opinion, is that during centuries in was wrapped up in one million things, influenced by some many historical, political, religious and other things, that there is almost nothing left out of this simplicity now in our times in Dzogchen as transmitted by lineages (whatever the school). I think the point is lost.

It's same like with teachings on compassion. There ale voluminous texts about it that are studied and recited in monasteries but after the studies monks go enjoy tasty meat in a monastery kitchen, eating the "mothers" that all beings are to us. This analogy shows how something can vanish over time and nobody will notice that it's not there now, supplementing it with something not necessarily substantial to it forms, rituals etc.
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:12 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:02 pm
spaces wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:01 am
But is there anyone teaching it in it's pure form nowadays? I made distinction between Tantra and Dzogchen as it is historically-provable distinction.
It is not so, from a text critical POV. The earliest, datable text we possess that uses the term “Dzogchen” is the Guhyagarbha, a tantra belonging to the mahayoga class.

What we can say for sure is that what we today call Dzogchen emerged out of a movement in 8th century that regarded the creation stage as optional.
GGT belongs to the Ati class.
No, it really doesn’t. But we do not need to rehash that here.
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:07 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:12 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:02 pm

It is not so, from a text critical POV. The earliest, datable text we possess that uses the term “Dzogchen” is the Guhyagarbha, a tantra belonging to the mahayoga class.

What we can say for sure is that what we today call Dzogchen emerged out of a movement in 8th century that regarded the creation stage as optional.
GGT belongs to the Ati class.
No, it really doesn’t. But we do not need to rehash that here.
See the sig. You’re rolling down a one-way street, selling one flavor of ice cream.

As a Sakya loppon, I’m pretty sure Khen Namdrol outguns you inn Nyingma, and everyone else for that matter. So let’s not obfuscate the real authentic teachers here.

If he’s wrong demand a formal apology for misleading us all and misrepresenting his lama Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok. He does that and I’ll bankroll your career.

If you’re wrong, let’s take a photo of ChNN and use the bindu a target 🎯 for darts.
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

spaces wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:15 pmTantra involves concept. Dzogchen doesn't. In this way Dzogchen predates Tantra - it is unmodified natural state.
I doubt that there was Tantra in Sidhartha Gautama's times. I doubt somebody was practicing yidam deity yoga or even guru yoga. Tantra is also Hindusm-influenced and vice versa (just look and Hindu and Buddhism -tantra deities forms - they are composed of same elements/style/color). Take a look here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra :
"Tantra (/ˈtʌntrə, ˈtæn-/; Sanskrit: तन्त्र, literally "loom, weave, system") denotes the esoteric traditions of Hinduism and Buddhism that co-developed most likely about the middle of the 1st millennium BC."
And here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana : "Tantric Buddhism can be traced back to groups of wandering yogis called Mahasiddhas (great adepts).[2] According to Reynolds (2007), the mahasiddhas date to the medieval period in the Northern Indian Subcontinent (3–13 cen. CE), and used methods that were radically different than those used in Buddhist monasteries including living in forests and caves and practiced meditation in charnel grounds similar to those practiced by Shaiva Kapalika ascetics.[3]"

Looks like Tantra wasn't part of Buddhism at all. It became it later. Besides there is no mention of Tantra in Sutras.
But Dzogchen, by Dzogchen, I don't mean lineage. I mean Natural State. Just plainly resting in Natural State - that was ultimate meaning of Sidhartha Gautama's teachings and there was no need for Tantra to transmit it. Why would there be one now? But it seems difficult to find people thinking that way. But where am I mistaken? Is there no viable reason to practice Dzogchen as a yana in itself?
I apologise for stating the obvious but... Wikipedia is not an authoritative source. Read Tibetologists. I gave you the link to Sam van Schaik's website. Use it.

I do not know who you are. But it appears to me it would be very beneficial to you if, instead of telling people what is what (or rather what you believe), you asked questions, listened to the answers, asked for clarifications, etc. There are people here who spent decades studying these things. It is worth listening to them before you start to decide what is what.
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Le critère est l’hospitalité.

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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by jet.urgyen »

spaces wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:01 am Hi,

That's exactly what I want to say. Tantra, in purpose, is the same IMO as Dzogchen teachings (I stress here Dzogchen teachings). They are both provisional means to achieve ultimate goal. But that could be said of any religious practice.
Tantra developed as a system of practices based on using our imaginative-delusional dualistic patterns to make them more "refined", such as visualization of deities, mantras etc. But that wasn't existent over first few hundred years of history of Buddhism. It was invented later. Before that invention, Dzogchen was taught outside of Tantra as we understand Tantra today. It was much "simpler" practice, without all the cultural burden that came later.
But is there anyone teaching it in it's pure form nowadays? I made distinction between Tantra and Dzogchen as it is historically-provable distinction. To bad that, because of political games in Tibet, they became taught as a single way, single vehicle IMO.
I have read on a book on origins of "The Sutra on The Gathering of all Intentions" that, originaly, the inner tantras -Maha, Anu, and Ati yogas- where not separated but in conjunction named as Mahayoga, at the time it was the cutting edge of Buddhist systems.

Of course we can not be much sure of anything about we can't gather impartial records. we can just believe, examine and alike; and in the best we can test.

Now, if there is people today that can receive DI, go beyhond doubts and remain in that knowledge, then i think you can find what you are looking for.
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by Natan »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:28 pm
spaces wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:01 am Hi,

That's exactly what I want to say. Tantra, in purpose, is the same IMO as Dzogchen teachings (I stress here Dzogchen teachings). They are both provisional means to achieve ultimate goal. But that could be said of any religious practice.
Tantra developed as a system of practices based on using our imaginative-delusional dualistic patterns to make them more "refined", such as visualization of deities, mantras etc. But that wasn't existent over first few hundred years of history of Buddhism. It was invented later. Before that invention, Dzogchen was taught outside of Tantra as we understand Tantra today. It was much "simpler" practice, without all the cultural burden that came later.
But is there anyone teaching it in it's pure form nowadays? I made distinction between Tantra and Dzogchen as it is historically-provable distinction. To bad that, because of political games in Tibet, they became taught as a single way, single vehicle IMO.
I have read on a book on origins of "The Sutra on The Gathering of all Intentions" that, originaly, the inner tantras -Maha, Anu, and Ati yogas- where not separated but in conjunction named as Mahayoga, at the time it was the cutting edge of Buddhist systems.

Of course we can not be much sure of anything about we can't gather impartial records. we can just believe, examine and alike; and in the best we can test.

Now, if there is people today that can receive DI, go beyhond doubts and remain in that knowledge, then i think you can find what you are looking for.
This is right. Longchenpa mentions this.
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by Natan »

Also if GGT is only mahayoga then the ganachakrapuja is too. Ever heard of a dakini didn’t do that always? Poor stupid dakinis. Ever heard of a lama that didn’t perform ganapuja always? Poor stupid lamas if they only knew the truth. Staring into the sky is all they had to do.
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Re: Dzogchen outside of Tantra

Post by Natan »

The GGT is a MASSIVE undertaking whose sadhana opens up possibilities like a flower. I’ve probably heard the 5 years of instruction over total about 25 years by now. Every detail missing nothing. The main practice of this tantra is the ganachakrapuja. If that’s not for you, vajrayana is not for you.
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