Question

[jet.urgyen]

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

[Pero]

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

Why do you think it's covered and discovered over and over?

[Josef]

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

It’s not covered and discovered over and over.

[jet.urgyen]

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

Why do you think it's covered and discovered over and over?

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

It’s not covered and discovered over and over.

¿How is that you are here then? Have any clue?

[Johnny Dangerous]

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

Why do you think it's covered and discovered over and over?

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

It’s not covered and discovered over and over.

¿How is that you are here then? Have any clue?

If you're asking how ignorance arises according to Dzogchen, I found Kongtruls Treasury of Knowledge- Myriad Worlds to explain it really concisely.

[Josef]

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

Why do you think it's covered and discovered over and over?

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

It’s not covered and discovered over and over.

¿How is that you are here then? Have any clue?

You havent discovered it in the past and even if you had received teachings in a previous lifetime that doesnt mean you fully realized them. This is the fundamental principle of the first statement of Garab Dorje. Once one has recognized their true nature they are on the path to liberation.
See the Kunzang Monlam (or any Dzogchen teaching) for more.

[jet.urgyen]

¿How is that you are here then? Have any clue?

If you're asking how ignorance arises according to Dzogchen, I found Kongtruls Treasury of Knowledge- Myriad Worlds to explain it really concisely.

No, I'm questioning how is it that basis can be "covered" and "rediscovered".

Clearly it can be covered, otherwise we wouldn't be in confusion.

And clearly can be rediscovered, otherwise normal people couldn't manifest it.

I will check Kongtrul's explanation, this always put some lights on, would you please referme the text, edition and page?

[jet.urgyen]

Why do you think it's covered and discovered over and over?

It’s not covered and discovered over and over.

¿How is that you are here then? Have any clue?

You havent discovered it in the past and even if you had received teachings in a previous lifetime that doesnt mean you fully realized them. This is the fundamental principle of the first statement of Garab Dorje. Once one has recognized their true nature they are on the path to liberation.
See the Kunzang Monlam (or any Dzogchen teaching) for more.

What you mean when you mention "realizing", you talk of realizing as if it is some sort of builded achievement?

[Josef]

¿How is that you are here then? Have any clue?

You havent discovered it in the past and even if you had received teachings in a previous lifetime that doesnt mean you fully realized them. This is the fundamental principle of the first statement of Garab Dorje. Once one has recognized their true nature they are on the path to liberation.
See the Kunzang Monlam (or any Dzogchen teaching) for more.

What you mean when you mention "realizing", you talk of realizing as if it is some sort of builded achievement?

The third statement of Garab Dorje. Full integration. Total realization.

[Johnny Dangerous]

¿How is that you are here then? Have any clue?

If you're asking how ignorance arises according to Dzogchen, I found Kongtruls Treasury of Knowledge- Myriad Worlds to explain it really concisely.

No, I'm questioning how is it that basis can be "covered" and "rediscovered".

Clearly it can be covered, otherwise we wouldn't be in confusion.

And clearly can be rediscovered, otherwise normal people couldn't manifest it.

I will check Kongtrul's explanation, this always put some lights on, would you please referme the text, edition and page?

https://www.abebooks.com/9781559391887/ ... 39188X/plp

Chapter 5: The Primordial Purity of The Universe p. 203-227, this is the entire Dzogchen section.

"The correct [view is that the ground is] primordial purity, the common basis of both deception and freedom."

The whole book is worth a read. basically it seems like you are asking how there can be the two accumulations if everything is pure from the beginning..iirc, reading it helped me to get this...a bit, though damned if I could reproduce the answer for you in language. In fact, I should probably read it again too.

The Dzogchen section is the shortest of the book, the sections on Dzogchen and on Mahayana view were profound for me.

For me this is not a thing with some satisfactory pithy answer really, and is a pretty deep question. Since the book covers and links both the view of the accumulations (i.e. the Mahayana), and of Dzogchen, it seems like a good fit.

[stevie]

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

Maybe this?
viewtopic.php?p=475743#p475743

[jet.urgyen]

You havent discovered it in the past and even if you had received teachings in a previous lifetime that doesnt mean you fully realized them. This is the fundamental principle of the first statement of Garab Dorje. Once one has recognized their true nature they are on the path to liberation.
See the Kunzang Monlam (or any Dzogchen teaching) for more.

What you mean when you mention "realizing", you talk of realizing as if it is some sort of builded achievement?

The third statement of Garab Dorje. Full integration. Total realization.

To realize means to become aware of, and even if one cant force realizing nature it is not a self occurring thing either, is it?

[heart]

What you mean when you mention "realizing", you talk of realizing as if it is some sort of builded achievement?

The third statement of Garab Dorje. Full integration. Total realization.

To realize means to become aware of, and even if one cant force realizing nature it is not a self occurring thing either, is it?

No, and that is why we practice, right?

/magnus

[Malcolm]

What you mean when you mention "realizing", you talk of realizing as if it is some sort of builded achievement?

The third statement of Garab Dorje. Full integration. Total realization.

To realize means to become aware of, and even if one cant force realizing nature it is not a self occurring thing either, is it?

In Dzogchen texts there are three stages generally described: recognition, realization, and liberation.

Some people think the third statement means full integration, but it does not. It means that the practitioner can continue in the confidence of liberation because they have previously decided one thing. Continuing in the confidence of liberation means that one has true knowledge of one's primordial state and therefore, with this knowledge, one's liberation is no longer in issue in terms of inevitability, it is only an issue of whether it occurs in this life, the time of death, the bardo, or a natural nirmanakāya buddhafield.

[Malcolm]

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

The basis is not rediscovered. It is called "the basis" because it is something that one has not realized.

[tatpurusa]

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

It is never covered nor uncovered.
It is ignored by the ordinary mind because it is incapable of grasping it.
The ordinary mind operates with forms, concepts and time. This is the only way it is capable of functioning.
Therefore it is absolutely impossible ever to discover or "uncover" the base trying to see it through the ordinary mind.
Trying to grasp reality by dividing it into concepts and time is avidya, the creator of dualistic view.

Rigpa is self-aware. It is not self-aware through the ordinary mind; it does not need it in order to be aware.
It does not have to use concepts and time in order to be self-aware.
It is the unity of emptiness and clarity, completely beyond all concepts and time.
Emptiness is unlimited, infinite potentiality, meaning that it contains absolutely everything that one has ever been, is, will be
or could be simultaneously. It is simultaneity of all.
Reality that is completely unprocessable and unaccessible to the ordinary mind.

tp.

[heart]

Maybe this can help:

There is only one mind; it is not that there are two minds, one recognizing the other. In the very moment of recognizing, it is like a knot that is untied. We don’t have to do anything further than that, leave it untied. In the moment of looking, it is already seen. It is not that later on we come to see. Why? Because mind and mind essence are very close.
The second reason is that it is not that mind essence is something that we have to get our sights on; it’s not like that. It is not that we need to hold the awareness on it for a while, like one or two minutes and slowly it will appear within our experience. Since there is only one mind, the moment you recognize, it is simply a matter of letting go. The thinker or knower of that moment is just like a new knot, like a new thought. The moment you abandon it, it unties. We are already arrived at where we need to arrive at, we are already in the nature of mind.
– Tsoknyi Rinpoche

from the book "Carefree Dignity: Discourses on Training in the Nature of Mind"

/magnus

[jet.urgyen]

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

The basis is not rediscovered. It is called "the basis" because it is something that one has not realized.

But Malcolm, how is that for example a realized teacher is named tulku then? How can one show or teach the basis without realize it? And being realized, how is that birth is taken without get it "covered"?

[Malcolm]

The basis once rediscovered seems perfect (whatever perfect mean) but ¿how can it be covered and then discovered over and over? ¿How is this play possible?l

The basis is not rediscovered. It is called "the basis" because it is something that one has not realized.

But Malcolm, how is that for example a realized teacher is named tulku then? How can one show or teach the basis without realize it? And being realized, how is that birth is taken without get it "covered"?

Most tulkus are not nirmanakāyas. "Tulku" is a Tibetan custom, it is not essential. Most tulkus are not even realized, they are just ordinary people like you and I.

[Pema Rigdzin]

...or a natural nirmanakāya buddhafield.

I've heard this term in teachings, and in books, but I've never sought an explanation of precisely what this means. It specifically says "natural" nirmanakaya buddhafield, which would seem to distinguish them from some other kind of nirmanakaya buddhafield. Could you please you expand upon this, Malcolm?