Oral Transmission

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Motova
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Oral Transmission

Post by Motova »

What are the prerequisites or conditions for oral transmission to occur?

What is the difference between someone explaining Dzogchen to someone and a lama giving an oral transmission to a new student?

Thank you.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by jet.urgyen »

Motova wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:20 pm What are the prerequisites or conditions for oral transmission to occur?

What is the difference between someone explaining Dzogchen to someone and a lama giving an oral transmission to a new student?

Thank you.
prerequisites i don't know, masters do knows. karma perhaps.

difference is between receiving from a Vidyadhara and from a non-Vidyadhara. :shrug:
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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schubertian
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by schubertian »

I'm a little unclear about the scope of your question, but it sounds like you are asking about the 'oral transmission' of the state of kadag-lhundrup which is the clear light dzogpachenpo.

There are three transmission a guru can and will give in the context of an empowerment to practice this profound path: oral, symbolic, and direct. ChNN gave all three during his retreats.

This oral, private, personal transmission is not the same thing as a casual or lecture-style explanation of the ideas and culture of dzogchen. It connects the student to the teacher in a special relationship, it has its samaya, it connects the student in a special relationship to vajra brothers and sisters, and it connects the student to the lineage masters and the transmission. The student then takes these three transmission and works on them 'at home' to develop and stabilise the natural state. The samaya and the transmission allow the inner tantras to become a fast path to full realisation - or even within one life time. A casual explanation of the 'ideas' of Dzogchen cannot make this claim.

there is also an oral transmission for mantra and for practices of secret mantra. There is also an oral transmission for sutras and shastras omewhat along the same pattern, but without the samaya.
Motova
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by Motova »

I asked an SMS instructor.

My understanding is that an oral transmission is not just about the words spoken, but depends entirely on the realization of the master. Basically, the process is initiated by someone with realization, or else oral transmission is just a name without any function. Furthermore, explaining Dzogchen doesn't qualify as an oral transmission. The SMS instructor really emphasised that oral transmission depends on the realization of the master.
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Drenpa
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by Drenpa »

Motova wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:32 pm I asked an SMS instructor.

My understanding is that an oral transmission is not just about the words spoken, but depends entirely on the realization of the master. Basically, the process is initiated by someone with realization, or else oral transmission is just a name without any function. Furthermore, explaining Dzogchen doesn't qualify as an oral transmission. The SMS instructor really emphasised that oral transmission depends on the realization of the master.
Interesting, thanks for posting this response. This stands to reason. If it were the case that to transmit the Dzogchen teachings one only has to speak the words, or you could get them from a book, then the transmission of the charlatan, serial killer of students, would have the power to liberate also. Instead of being a cause for hell-vision.

This is why it's said at the outset that the teacher is everything, the root of the path of Mantra.
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by climb-up »

Motova wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:20 pm What are the prerequisites or conditions for oral transmission to occur?

What is the difference between someone explaining Dzogchen to someone and a lama giving an oral transmission to a new student?

Thank you.
By Oral Transmission, do you mean "Direct Introduction?
The requirements are whatever the Lama giving DI says they are. ChNN had no requirements other than interest, some lamas require full training in Sutra and tantra and some are in between.

As noted above explaining dzogchen is just conceptual. DI is an introduction to the state of dzogchen through the realization of the master and the intention of both the master and student to introduce the student into the state that master resides in.
...that is my understanding.
This is why it's said at the outset that the teacher is everything, the root of the path of Mantra.
Yes, that's why guruyoga is the complete path and why "Lama" is one who we cannot go beyond. The practice is what is introduced by the teacher.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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Re: Oral Transmission

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Motova wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:20 pm What are the prerequisites or conditions for oral transmission to occur?

What is the difference between someone explaining Dzogchen to someone and a lama giving an oral transmission to a new student?

Thank you.
This is a bit confusing.. oral transmission usually refers to giving lung. As in the three wang, lung and tri which translates to empowerment, oral transmission, and pith instruction. These are generally within the scope of Tantra. Although of course there is oral transmission of Dzogchen mantras or Dzogchen texts. With Dzogchen DI, it could be given partly through the medium of words, or syllables, (as with ChNN’s method with AH) or it may not. So it’s not synonymous with “oral transmission”. If indeed you’re asking about Direct Introduction? Because DI is also bestowed in spontaneous ways, such as Do Khyentse grabbing Patrul Rinpoche by his collar and wildly dragging him around (calling him "old dog!" so there is that oral part :tongue:) or Dudjom Lingpa unsheathing his sword and raising it up as if about to kill his disciples, etc. There are many unfathomable methods of DI, and a great master will be flexible and capable of spontaneous methods according to the capacity and needs of their disciples.
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by florin »

Dzogchen texts speak of three modes of how primordial knowledge can be introduced(or more accurately, two).
They are oral, symbolic, direct each respectively being connected to the three dimensions of our existence: nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya, Dharmakaya.
Oral transmission, that is of nirmanakaya level, takes place when a teacher in full complete knowledge of primordial state speaks from “ inside” this state in order to convey the meaning. Oral transmission is of nirmanakaya level because the teacher needs to use the means that humans understand and can relate to like words and concepts, these being the “vehicle” trough wich this transmission is given.
Symbolic transmission- Sambhogakaya level-happens when the teacher uses various symbols, like letters, objects, experiences and gives examples based on these symbols.
Direct transmission- there is no human that can give direct transmission. This means that direct transmission takes place only when as a practitioner, and on the basis of the first two transmissions, one unmistakanely recognises the empty Dharmakaya source of samsara and nirvana and rests in that knowledge.
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by Motova »

What is the Tibetan for oral transmission (in the context of ChNN's teachings)?

Thank you.
florin
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by florin »

Motova wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:04 am What is the Tibetan for oral transmission (in the context of ChNN's teachings)?

Thank you.

The tib. term for oral transmission is snyan brgyud, for symbolic transmission brda brgyud and for direct transmission dgongs brgyud .
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by amanitamusc »

Try reading "Qrystal and the Way of Light"Motova.
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by Adamantine »

Motova wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:04 am What is the Tibetan for oral transmission (in the context of ChNN's teachings)?

Thank you.
What florin is referencing is one of the “Three transmissions” གང་ཟག་སྙན་བརྒྱུད་ or gang zag snyan brgyud , although I’ve more often seen it in English rendition as “aural”, which refers to hearing transmission lineage, so I’m not sure why it’s been interchangeable with oral. I suppose it’s at the whim of the translator depending on context. In Dudjom Rinpoche’s History of the Nyingma it’s translated as aural. Anyway, was this what you were referencing in the OP?

ChNN gives lungs / oral transmissions for all the secondary practices during every retreat, also. This is ལུང and also translates as “oral transmission”
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Re: Oral Transmission

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florin wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:55 pm Dzogchen texts speak of three modes of how primordial knowledge can be introduced(or more accurately, two).
They are oral, symbolic, direct each respectively being connected to the three dimensions of our existence: nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya, Dharmakaya.
Oral transmission, that is of nirmanakaya level, takes place when a teacher in full complete knowledge of primordial state speaks from “ inside” this state in order to convey the meaning. Oral transmission is of nirmanakaya level because the teacher needs to use the means that humans understand and can relate to like words and concepts, these being the “vehicle” trough wich this transmission is given.
Symbolic transmission- Sambhogakaya level-happens when the teacher uses various symbols, like letters, objects, experiences and gives examples based on these symbols.
Direct transmission- there is no human that can give direct transmission. This means that direct transmission takes place only when as a practitioner, and on the basis of the first two transmissions, one unmistakanely recognises the empty Dharmakaya source of samsara and nirvana and rests in that knowledge.
florin, does ChNN present the three transmissions this way in some place? Generally, the first two are referred to as historical accounts of the origins of Mahayoga and Dzogchen lineage, not as continuing to us today, whereas the aural-transmission lineage is what has continuity to our time and place.

For instance (excerpted from Signs, Memory and History: A Tantric BuddhistTheory of Scriptural Transmission, by Janet Gyatso):
Here the evolution of the Treasure is portrayed in terms of the same paradigm by which the rNying ma School describes the transmission of all Buddhist scriptures, and in particular the Old Tantras. This transmission paradigm has three phases: the Jina's Transmission of the Realized (rgyal ba'i dgongs brgyud); the Vidyadhara's Transmission in Symbols (rig 'dzin brda brgyud); and the Transmission into the Ears of People {gang zag snyan
khung du brgyud)* The progression is as follows. The point of inception, or the ultimate ground of the Buddha's teaching, is the Transmission of the Realized. This is placed in the context of a buddha-field, and consists in the teachings of a primordial buddha (ddibuddha) such as Samantabhadra-with-consort. In the second phase, that of the Symbolic Transmission, the teaching devolves through the mediation of symbols. Here the teachers
and students are the early patriarchs of the rNying ma School, somewhere on the scene of late Indian Tantric Buddhism. Fi- nally, in the third phase, the Ear Transmission, there is a discur- sive and overtly verbal conveying of the text. The classical in- stance of the Ear Transmission is Padmasambhava's dissemina- tion of Buddhism to King Khri srong lde btsan and the Tibetan royal court.
From https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/i ... /8690/2597

This also corresponds loosely to the presentation in Dudjom Rinpoche’s “The Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism Its Fundamentals and History.”

Note Janet’s rendition of the translation as “into the ears of people”. This is awkward, yet clearly different from “oral”. My scholar/translator friend John Pettit remarked that there's a slight misunderstanding in the translation as “oral”, as the focus is on hearing and listening, the method of receiving the lineage. Lung/agama refers to the method of bestowal which is speaking. He explained that the expression nyen-gyud refers implicitly to the fact that these are instructions that must be heard directly to be understood the right way. An interpersonal context is essential. Receiving a 'lung' is authorization, but one doesn't have to experience the subject on the spot. It can be passive and mechanical like receiving the Kangyur, for instance.

From Words of my Perfect Teacher pg 345:
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florin
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by florin »

Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:02 am
florin wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:55 pm Dzogchen texts speak of three modes of how primordial knowledge can be introduced(or more accurately, two).
They are oral, symbolic, direct each respectively being connected to the three dimensions of our existence: nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya, Dharmakaya.
Oral transmission, that is of nirmanakaya level, takes place when a teacher in full complete knowledge of primordial state speaks from “ inside” this state in order to convey the meaning. Oral transmission is of nirmanakaya level because the teacher needs to use the means that humans understand and can relate to like words and concepts, these being the “vehicle” trough wich this transmission is given.
Symbolic transmission- Sambhogakaya level-happens when the teacher uses various symbols, like letters, objects, experiences and gives examples based on these symbols.
Direct transmission- there is no human that can give direct transmission. This means that direct transmission takes place only when as a practitioner, and on the basis of the first two transmissions, one unmistakanely recognises the empty Dharmakaya source of samsara and nirvana and rests in that knowledge.
florin, does ChNN present the three transmissions this way in some place? Generally, the first two are referred to as historical accounts of the origins of Mahayoga and Dzogchen lineage, not as continuing to us today, whereas the aural-transmission lineage is what has continuity to our time and place.
There is a brief mention of the three modes of transmission in the Supreme Source in the chapter on "The origin of dzogchen from Oddiyana to Tibet"
I added some detail from how it was explained to me by some senior students of ChNN.
The third-direct transmission-is particularly controversial and somewhat confusing because this is not what most practitioners know this transmission to be. It adds to confusion the fact that whenever dzogchen knowledge is transmitted they call it direct transmission or direct introduction.

For instance (excerpted from Signs, Memory and History: A Tantric BuddhistTheory of Scriptural Transmission, by Janet Gyatso):
Here the evolution of the Treasure is portrayed in terms of the same paradigm by which the rNying ma School describes the transmission of all Buddhist scriptures, and in particular the Old Tantras. This transmission paradigm has three phases: the Jina's Transmission of the Realized (rgyal ba'i dgongs brgyud); the Vidyadhara's Transmission in Symbols (rig 'dzin brda brgyud); and the Transmission into the Ears of People {gang zag snyan
khung du brgyud)* The progression is as follows. The point of inception, or the ultimate ground of the Buddha's teaching, is the Transmission of the Realized. This is placed in the context of a buddha-field, and consists in the teachings of a primordial buddha (ddibuddha) such as Samantabhadra-with-consort. In the second phase, that of the Symbolic Transmission, the teaching devolves through the mediation of symbols. Here the teachers
and students are the early patriarchs of the rNying ma School, somewhere on the scene of late Indian Tantric Buddhism. Fi- nally, in the third phase, the Ear Transmission, there is a discur- sive and overtly verbal conveying of the text. The classical in- stance of the Ear Transmission is Padmasambhava's dissemina- tion of Buddhism to King Khri srong lde btsan and the Tibetan royal court.
From https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/i ... /8690/2597

This also corresponds loosely to the presentation in Dudjom Rinpoche’s “The Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism Its Fundamentals and History.”

Note Janet’s rendition of the translation as “into the ears of people”. This is awkward, yet clearly different from “oral”. My scholar/translator friend John Pettit remarked that there's a slight misunderstanding in the translation as “oral”, as the focus is on hearing and listening, the method of receiving the lineage. Lung/agama refers to the method of bestowal which is speaking. He explained that the expression nyen-gyud refers implicitly to the fact that these are instructions that must be heard directly to be understood the right way. An interpersonal context is essential. Receiving a 'lung' is authorization, but one doesn't have to experience the subject on the spot. It can be passive and mechanical like receiving the Kangyur, for instance.

From Words of my Perfect Teacher pg 345:
Well it looks like the tib. terms in your sources are identical to the ones from Supreme Source but the way they are translated and explained leads one to believe that they are something different. Something that refers to historical phases and lineages. I wonder if there is a connection between the way they are presented here and the three modes of transmission of primordial knowledge that a dzogchen master uses.
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Re: Oral Transmission

Post by Adamantine »

florin wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:30 pm
Well it looks like the tib. terms in your sources are identical to the ones from Supreme Source but the way they are translated and explained leads one to believe that they are something different. Something that refers to historical phases and lineages. I wonder if there is a connection between the way they are presented here and the three modes of transmission of primordial knowledge that a dzogchen master uses.

Hmmmmmn, not sure what you mean, as Supreme Source references precisely the same history, phases and lineages…
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