Lama Wangdor Rinpoche & Rainbow Body

[Könchok Thrinley]

Near Tsopema one can perhaps meet Lama Wangdor Rinpoche. Lama Wangdor is highly reputed as a Dzogchen teacher and for being accessible. It seems very likely he has attained Rainbow Body.

Sorry, but you have to die first to achieve Rainbow Body.

Moderator's note: This discussion has been split from this thread.

[Vaktar]

Near Tsopema one can perhaps meet Lama Wangdor Rinpoche. Lama Wangdor is highly reputed as a Dzogchen teacher and for being accessible. It seems very likely he has attained Rainbow Body.

Sorry, but you have to die first to achieve Rainbow Body.

Sorry but you didn't read the Rigpa Wiki link first.

I meant "Rainbow Body of Great Transference" but I didn't want to get too technical. What I said about it being "very likely" in Lama Wangdor's case is based on private conversation with his student Lama Lena, who lived with Lama Wangdor in India for years. There are certain signs that indicate possible attainment of Jalu Pochen or Rainbow Body of Great Transference, such as being able to manifest in two places at once, being unimpeded by the physical elements and so on, though those alone do not guarantee there has been Great Transference.

[Sherab Rigdrol]

Near Tsopema one can perhaps meet Lama Wangdor Rinpoche. Lama Wangdor is highly reputed as a Dzogchen teacher and for being accessible. It seems very likely he has attained Rainbow Body.

Sorry, but you have to die first to achieve Rainbow Body.

Sorry but you didn't read the Rigpa Wiki link first.

I meant "Rainbow Body of Great Transference" but I didn't want to get too technical. What I said about it being "very likely" in Lama Wangdor's case is based on private conversation with his student Lama Lena, who lived with Lama Wangdor in India for years. There are certain signs that indicate possible attainment of Jalu Pochen or Rainbow Body of Great Transference, such as being able to manifest in two places at once, being unimpeded by the physical elements and so on, though those alone do not guarantee there has been Great Transference.

Those sound more like a display of mundane siddhis.

[Vaktar]

Sorry, but you have to die first to achieve Rainbow Body.

Sorry but you didn't read the Rigpa Wiki link first.

I meant "Rainbow Body of Great Transference" but I didn't want to get too technical. What I said about it being "very likely" in Lama Wangdor's case is based on private conversation with his student Lama Lena, who lived with Lama Wangdor in India for years. There are certain signs that indicate possible attainment of Jalu Pochen or Rainbow Body of Great Transference, such as being able to manifest in two places at once, being unimpeded by the physical elements and so on, though those alone do not guarantee there has been Great Transference.

Those sound more like a display of mundane siddhis.

My thought exactly, hence the proviso

though those alone do not guarantee there has been Great Transference.

But with supramundane siddhi come mundane siddhis. Most people with the name "lama" can't seem to demonstrate any mundane siddhis. In Dzogchen the attainments I mentioned are cited, in context, as evidence of supramundane siddhi, however. In other words, at a certain stage of practice. For an old Dzogchen yogi they may not be so uncommon, it's just that who has time to spend years around such beings? Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche said that his teacher (Khen Ngagchung) did not cast a shadow. That is one of the signs of Rainbow Body of Great Transference. I don't know if Lama Wangdor casts a shadow or not. Perhaps the OP can tell us in a few months' time!

[Sherab Rigdrol]

Sorry but you didn't read the Rigpa Wiki link first.

I meant "Rainbow Body of Great Transference" but I didn't want to get too technical. What I said about it being "very likely" in Lama Wangdor's case is based on private conversation with his student Lama Lena, who lived with Lama Wangdor in India for years. There are certain signs that indicate possible attainment of Jalu Pochen or Rainbow Body of Great Transference, such as being able to manifest in two places at once, being unimpeded by the physical elements and so on, though those alone do not guarantee there has been Great Transference.

Those sound more like a display of mundane siddhis.

My thought exactly, hence the proviso

though those alone do not guarantee there has been Great Transference.

But with supramundane siddhi come mundane siddhis. Most people with the name "lama" can't seem to demonstrate any mundane siddhis. In Dzogchen the attainments I mentioned are cited, in context, as evidence of supramundane siddhi, however. In other words, at a certain stage of practice. For an old Dzogchen yogi they may not be so uncommon, it's just that who has time to spend years around such beings? Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche said that his teacher (Khen Ngagchung) did not cast a shadow. That is one of the signs of Rainbow Body of Great Transference. I don't know if Lama Wangdor casts a shadow or not. Perhaps the OP can tell us in a few months' time!

Still not it, sorry. As per definition from the link you provided:

Another accomplishment of tögal practice is the ‘Rainbow Body of Great Transference’ (Tib. འཇའ་ལུས་འཕོ་བ་ཆེན་པོ་, ja lü phowa chenpo; Wyl. 'ja lus 'pho ba chen po), where the master dissolves his or her body into rainbow light and lives for centuries in order to benefit others.

Well, his body is still here... So.... This is not to doubt any realization he may have but this is very, very specific.

[ThreeVows]

Rainbow Body of Great Transference...

Well, his body is still here...

Just to clarify one thing, I believe that in this specific type of rainbow body, the body indeed will appear to 'still be here'. In actuality it is not flesh and blood in the limited way we might think of it, but to the perception of beings it may still appear to be a normal body... or it may not depending on karma/perception/etc.

In fact, I think you could make an argument that Shakyamuni was this way. In the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, he talks about connecting with various assemblies and says basically that he adjusted his appearance and voice to be that of the assembly. Excerpt below:

“Ānanda, there are these eight assemblies. Which eight? A noble warrior assembly, a brahmans assembly, a householder assembly, a contemplative assembly, a Four Great Kings assembly, a (Devas of the) Thirty-three assembly, a Māra assembly, a Brahmā assembly.

“I can remember approaching many hundreds of noble warrior assemblies. There—before seating myself, before talking, before engaging in conversation—whatever sort of appearance they had, that was the sort of appearance I had; whatever sort of accent they had, that was the sort of accent I had. And I instructed, urged, roused, & encouraged them with Dhamma talk. While I was speaking, they didn’t know me: ‘Who is this who speaks—a deva or a human being?’ Having instructed, urged, roused, & encouraged them with Dhamma talk, I disappeared. When I had disappeared, they didn’t know me: ‘Who is this who disappeared—a deva or a human being?’

“I can remember approaching many hundreds of brahman assemblies… many hundreds of householder assemblies… many hundreds of contemplative assemblies… many hundreds of Four Great King assemblies… many hundreds of (Devas of the) Thirty-three assemblies… many hundreds of Māra assemblies…

“I can remember approaching many hundreds of Brahmā assemblies. There—before seating myself, before talking, before engaging in conversation—whatever sort of appearance they had, that was the sort of appearance I had; whatever sort of accent they had, that was the sort of accent I had. And I instructed, urged, roused, & encouraged them with Dhamma talk. While I was speaking, they didn’t know me: ‘Who is this person who speaks—a deva or a human being?’ Having instructed, urged, roused, & encouraged them with Dhamma talk, I disappeared. When I had disappeared, they didn’t know me: ‘Who is this who disappeared—a deva or a human being?’

[Vaktar]

Another accomplishment of tögal practice is the ‘Rainbow Body of Great Transference’ (Tib. འཇའ་ལུས་འཕོ་བ་ཆེན་པོ་, ja lü phowa chenpo; Wyl. 'ja lus 'pho ba chen po), where the master dissolves his or her body into rainbow light and lives for centuries in order to benefit others.

Well, his body is still here... So.... This is not to doubt any realization he may have but this is very, very specific.

I think you're still not reading carefully enough. It says "...and lives for centuries in order to benefit others". This possibility is discussed in Tulku Thondup's book Buddha Mind a.k.a. The Practice of Dzogchen. The point is, one "lives", i.e., remains visible to others for a long time, perhaps, like Vimalamitra on Wutai Shan/Five Peaks mountain. To still be visible in the is the considered the highest rainbow body attainment according to the Dzogchen Nyingtik teachings -- not dissolving into light like a fireworks finale, with little or no residue.

It also doesn't say "... dissolves his or her body into rainbow light while someone else watches...". The signs of attainment may or may not be visible to others when they occur.

[Pero]

Being unimpeded by the element is indeed one of the signs. Also, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa finished the four visions but his body was still here. Even if one is on that level I think it doesn't necessarily mean that one will manifest it.

[Sherab Rigdrol]

Vaktar,

Well, it's kind of a moot point because no one really knows. For me personally I judge teachers based on their bodhicitta, knowledge of tantras and sutras and sense of humor. I stopped caring about siddhis when I turned 30. That being said Lama Wangdor is a most excellent choice for OP to check out as well!

Also I was wrong about one attaining the rainbow body and still residing in flesh and bone.

[krodha]

Also, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa finished the four visions but his body was still here.

It appeared to be there from the standpoint of people’s karmic vision.

[passel]

Near Tsopema one can perhaps meet Lama Wangdor Rinpoche. Lama Wangdor is highly reputed as a Dzogchen teacher and for being accessible. It seems very likely he has attained Rainbow Body.

Sorry, but you have to die first to achieve Rainbow Body.

Sorry but you didn't read the Rigpa Wiki link first.

I meant "Rainbow Body of Great Transference" but I didn't want to get too technical. What I said about it being "very likely" in Lama Wangdor's case is based on private conversation with his student Lama Lena, who lived with Lama Wangdor in India for years. There are certain signs that indicate possible attainment of Jalu Pochen or Rainbow Body of Great Transference, such as being able to manifest in two places at once, being unimpeded by the physical elements and so on, though those alone do not guarantee there has been Great Transference.

I thought Lama Lena was attached to Lama Wangdu, not Lama Wangdor?

[passel]

But with supramundane siddhi come mundane siddhis. Most people with the name "lama" can't seem to demonstrate any mundane siddhis. In Dzogchen the attainments I mentioned are cited, in context, as evidence of supramundane siddhi, however. In other words, at a certain stage of practice. For an old Dzogchen yogi they may not be so uncommon, it's just that who has time to spend years around such beings? Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche said that his teacher (Khen Ngagchung) did not cast a shadow. That is one of the signs of Rainbow Body of Great Transference. I don't know if Lama Wangdor casts a shadow or not. Perhaps the OP can tell us in a few months' time!

If Lama Wangdor casts a shadow, then what.

6 more kalpas of samsara I bet.

[Groundhog reference]

[krodha]

I thought Lama Lena was attached to Lama Wangdu, not Lama Wangdor?

Lama Wangdor.

[Drenpa]

Being unimpeded by the element is indeed one of the signs. Also, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa finished the four visions but his body was still here. Even if one is on that level I think it doesn't necessarily mean that one will manifest it.

We see what we see, based on karmic vision. Unless there is a high level of realization (8th bhumi IIRC) a practitioner, although they have real faith and devotion, won't necessarily see Guru Padmasambava on his day even though he covenanted to appear before those with faith and devotion.

Likewise even if a great being becomes a Buddha in this very life, like KDL, there is no guarantee that anyone can see that. But this in no way means the great being hasn't completed the path of Dzogchen and manifested the realization. It just means that most people don't manifest the clarity necessary to have contact with the Sambogakaya.

When a great master like Nyala Padma Dundul, for example, manifests this realization in a very public way after death it's not as though those assembled there can see the manifestation and that is how we come to have this history. Rather they can see the impure parts left behind, hair & nails etc, signs corresponding to samsaric vision and level of Nirmanakaya like rainbow lights during the transition, etc.

[Kris]

Speaking about accomplishing the vajrakaya. There is also the way the ancient rigdzins vanished; such as Garab Dorje, Manjusrimitra, Sri Simha and Jnanasutra. There bodies depart into space, but through the strong devotion of their disciples prayers they reappear and bestow their final testament. This is definitely of the highest category of vajrakaya.