Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Oklahoma
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Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Oklahoma » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:40 pm

So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Marc » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:43 pm

If I remember correctly, Malcolm mentioned that Düdjom's Tröma Nakmo incldes Thögal...
This would explain that...

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by heart » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:20 pm

Oklahoma wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:40 pm
So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
It isn't the deity per se ,it is the cycle of practice. The throma cycle is a complete path containing trechö and tögal. There is an other cycle by Dudjom Lingpa based on Vajrakilaya that also is a complete path. In fact there are many such cycles. Just doing a a short daily practice from these cycles isn't (normally) enough. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Oklahoma
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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Oklahoma » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:40 am

heart wrote:
Oklahoma wrote: So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
It isn't the deity per se ,it is the cycle of practice. The throma cycle is a complete path containing trechö and tögal. There is an other cycle by Dudjom Lingpa based on Vajrakilaya that also is a complete path. In fact there are many such cycles. Just doing a a short daily practice from these cycles isn't (normally) enough. :smile:

magnus
Hmmm, who knew. And here I was thinking Dzogchen practices were their own thing and that each deity sadhana was its own thing.
But definitely thanks for explaining that interesting point. I did however wonder at the fact that Troma sadhana has Dzogchen teachings imbedded into the puja text and the whole sadhana itself has the energy of spaciousness and no boundaries against demons, for lack of a better way of explaining it, whereas all other deity puja texts are more “tantric” for lack of a better term, and not as as remotely as dzogchen-y as Troma, and with Vajrakila especially being very boundary oriented, Always wondered about that too come to think of it...

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:01 am

I think you will find that the vast majority of practices have, as their ultimate aim, the realisation of Dzogchen.
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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Sennin » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:03 pm

Oklahoma wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:40 am

Hmmm, who knew. And here I was thinking Dzogchen practices were their own thing and that each deity sadhana was its own thing.
But definitely thanks for explaining that interesting point. I did however wonder at the fact that Troma sadhana has Dzogchen teachings imbedded into the puja text and the whole sadhana itself has the energy of spaciousness and no boundaries against demons, for lack of a better way of explaining it, whereas all other deity puja texts are more “tantric” for lack of a better term, and not as as remotely as dzogchen-y as Troma, and with Vajrakila especially being very boundary oriented, Always wondered about that too come to think of it...
In some Nyingtig cycles the deity is the uncommon stage of development; while rushan, trecho and togal would be designated as the uncommon stage of completion.
Some practice cycles are vast and contain many levels of accompanying sadhana and the key points.
Some are concise yet profound in only containing one sadhana and the key points.
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Adamantine » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:21 pm

In the Nyingma there are a number of terma practice cycles which combine Maha Anu and Ati yogas, which both build from the realization or adepthood of Mahayoga to higher capacity for accomplishment in Anuyoga, and so forth with Anu to Ati. At the same time, the Ati yoga view generally informs Mahayoga and Anuyoga practice in very significant and profound ways.. so much so that’s it’s really quite hard to make more than the most provisional of labels separating them for practical reference points. This all is in the scope of the 9 Yana Nyingma system, and it’s the most widespread and common approach to Dzogchen really. With the Chöd unique to Dudjom Lingpa’s Troma cycle, really it functions as an active practice of Trekchod.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by heart » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:39 pm

Oklahoma wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:40 am
heart wrote:
Oklahoma wrote: So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
It isn't the deity per se ,it is the cycle of practice. The throma cycle is a complete path containing trechö and tögal. There is an other cycle by Dudjom Lingpa based on Vajrakilaya that also is a complete path. In fact there are many such cycles. Just doing a a short daily practice from these cycles isn't (normally) enough. :smile:

magnus
Hmmm, who knew. And here I was thinking Dzogchen practices were their own thing and that each deity sadhana was its own thing.
But definitely thanks for explaining that interesting point. I did however wonder at the fact that Troma sadhana has Dzogchen teachings imbedded into the puja text and the whole sadhana itself has the energy of spaciousness and no boundaries against demons, for lack of a better way of explaining it, whereas all other deity puja texts are more “tantric” for lack of a better term, and not as as remotely as dzogchen-y as Troma, and with Vajrakila especially being very boundary oriented, Always wondered about that too come to think of it...
Other sadhanas also have trechö and tögal instructions imbedded in the text, even if it don't always show. Vajrakilaya is a major mahayoga yidam practice in the Nyingma but that doesn't mean there are not both Anu yoga and Ati yoga sadhanas of Kilaya as well as instructions in trechö and tögal. Even the Sakya Khon tradition of Phurbha have such instructions.

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Adamantine » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:16 pm

heart wrote: Even the Sakya Khon tradition of Phurbha have such instructions.

/magnus
To be fair, you make it sound Sakya however it’s a Nyingma
Kama Vajrakilaya practice that the Khon family kept preserved, not a Sarma practice.. so it makes sense that it’d follow the same trends as other Nyingma Mahayoga sadhanas. I’m sure you know this Magnus I’m just helping clarify for others benefit.
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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by heart » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:11 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:16 pm
heart wrote: Even the Sakya Khon tradition of Phurbha have such instructions.

/magnus
To be fair, you make it sound Sakya however it’s a Nyingma
Yes, of course, wasn't my intention.

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Vaktar » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:30 pm

Marc wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:43 pm
If I remember correctly, Malcolm mentioned that Düdjom's Tröma Nakmo incldes Thögal...
This would explain that...
There is a Togal commentary connected with the Kandro Tuktik of Dujom Lingpa. It's been translated multiple times. Maybe published also in one of Alan Wallace's books but I haven't really looked at those. There are unique features to the practice in Dujom Lingpa's explanation.

I don't any one aspect of the Troma practice, least of all perhaps the mantra, explains why it is so powerful and why so many practitioners have attained rainbow body because of it. The standard tsok is five hours, or even eight hours long. And those texts recited in Tsok are just a few of the texts and practices associated with Troma. It's a very thorough approach, and very powerful. You're totally covered, as much as you can practice it.

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Varis » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:20 pm

Certain HYT practices lead to RB. Although Malcolm said this RB is different from the DZ RB.

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Adamantine » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:24 am

Vaktar wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:30 pm
Marc wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:43 pm
If I remember correctly, Malcolm mentioned that Düdjom's Tröma Nakmo incldes Thögal...
This would explain that...
There is a Togal commentary connected with the Kandro Tuktik of Dujom Lingpa. It's been translated multiple times. Maybe published also in one of Alan Wallace's books but I haven't really looked at those. There are unique features to the practice in Dujom Lingpa's explanation.

I don't any one aspect of the Troma practice, least of all perhaps the mantra, explains why it is so powerful and why so many practitioners have attained rainbow body because of it. The standard tsok is five hours, or even eight hours long. And those texts recited in Tsok are just a few of the texts and practices associated with Troma. It's a very thorough approach, and very powerful. You're totally covered, as much as you can practice it.
Actually not to split hairs however the Khandro Thuktig cycle is HH Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje’s terma revelation, not his predecessor Dudjom Lingpa’s. Of course they’re one and the same in essence, however these are how the cycles are categorized. So the Khandro Thuktig is fresher, so to speak...

There is Togal in Dudjom Lingpa’s Troma cycle too of course.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Adamantine » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:27 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:24 am
Vaktar wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:30 pm
Marc wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:43 pm
If I remember correctly, Malcolm mentioned that Düdjom's Tröma Nakmo incldes Thögal...
This would explain that...
There is a Togal commentary connected with the Kandro Tuktik of Dujom Lingpa. It's been translated multiple times. Maybe published also in one of Alan Wallace's books but I haven't really looked at those. There are unique features to the practice in Dujom Lingpa's explanation.

I don't any one aspect of the Troma practice, least of all perhaps the mantra, explains why it is so powerful and why so many practitioners have attained rainbow body because of it. The standard tsok is five hours, or even eight hours long. And those texts recited in Tsok are just a few of the texts and practices associated with Troma. It's a very thorough approach, and very powerful. You're totally covered, as much as you can practice it.
Actually not to split hairs however the Khandro Thuktig cycle is HH Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje’s terma revelation, not his predecessor Dudjom Lingpa’s. Of course they’re one and the same in essence, however these are how the cycles are categorized. So the Khandro Thuktig is fresher, so to speak...

There is Togal in Dudjom Lingpa’s Troma cycle too of course.
Realized you may have been referring to the Dakini Heart Essence title of the togal commentary from the Troma cycle... when you said “connected with” it sounded like you were referring to a larger revelatory cycle such as the Khandro Thuktig/ Yeshe Tsogyal terma cycle which also includes togal instructions.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Drenpa » Fri May 31, 2019 1:39 am

Oklahoma wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:40 pm
So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
IMO this type of Upadesha realization has much less to do with the particular method, and everything to do with the realization of the teacher and purity of the close lineage between master & disciple. Assuming a totally realized teacher and unbroken lineage, the only other major factor in my mind is the diligence and capacity of the disciple. Samaya is the root of realization.

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by heart » Fri May 31, 2019 5:57 pm

Drenpa wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 1:39 am
Oklahoma wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:40 pm
So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
IMO this type of Upadesha realization has much less to do with the particular method, and everything to do with the realization of the teacher and purity of the close lineage between master & disciple. Assuming a totally realized teacher and unbroken lineage, the only other major factor in my mind is the diligence and capacity of the disciple. Samaya is the root of realization.
Excellent post. So the fact that Dudjom Lingpa discovered this terma and 13 of his close disciples attained full realisation is the reason that terma lineages where so popular in Tibet.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by pemachophel » Fri May 31, 2019 7:50 pm

Dudjom Tersar Throma is not just a single sadhana. It contains the whole path from ngondro to thodgal.

That being said, I totally agree that without pure samaya, there's no rainbow body.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by Sennin » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:41 am

The cycle also includes a unique Troma togal guru yoga, that is practiced for six months in retreat.
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:10 pm

I don't understand why one will need trekchod and togal to attain rainbow body. The chinese site reported that a Nyingma lama who refused to practice any other methods other than mandala offering has attained rainbow body.

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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:30 pm

And here I was thinking Dzogchen practices were their own thing and that each deity sadhana was its own thing.
I wonder where you’d get that kind of idea.... :shrug:
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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