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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:37 am
by heart
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:10 pm
I don't understand why one will need trekchod and togal to attain rainbow body. The chinese site reported that a Nyingma lama who refused to practice any other methods other than mandala offering has attained rainbow body.
well, mandala offerings don't need to exclude trechö, just so you know.

/magnus

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:34 am
by TrimePema
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:10 pm
I don't understand why one will need trekchod and togal to attain rainbow body. The chinese site reported that a Nyingma lama who refused to practice any other methods other than mandala offering has attained rainbow body.
Impossible to explain.
IMO it seems common for people not to understand in this way until receiving pointing out and some pith instructions. Maybe you could start there?

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:38 am
by Tata1
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:10 pm
I don't understand why one will need trekchod and togal to attain rainbow body. The chinese site reported that a Nyingma lama who refused to practice any other methods other than mandala offering has attained rainbow body.

Chinese site?

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:24 pm
by WeiHan
TrimePema wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:34 am
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:10 pm
I don't understand why one will need trekchod and togal to attain rainbow body. The chinese site reported that a Nyingma lama who refused to practice any other methods other than mandala offering has attained rainbow body.
Impossible to explain.
IMO it seems common for people not to understand in this way until receiving pointing out and some pith instructions. Maybe you could start there?
The explanation is that merit is crucial in actually realising the view. That lama accumulated sufficient merit by persevering in his mandala offering practise and attained the view with no need for pointing out. Is implicit, guru devotion is in his mandala offering practice so he received blessing from his lineage too.

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:51 pm
by Grigoris
Tata1 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:38 am
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:10 pm
I don't understand why one will need trekchod and togal to attain rainbow body. The chinese site reported that a Nyingma lama who refused to practice any other methods other than mandala offering has attained rainbow body.

Chinese site?
:popcorn:

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:01 pm
by WeiHan
This links to a teaching by Ven Da Yuan. Somewhere three quarter down the teaching, there is a paragraph that mention a Nyingma lama who attained rainbow body by practicing mandala offering only, not very willing to practice any other stuffs. You can use "Ctrl F" and type in "虹", and you will find that paragraph. I remember reading this in other sites too, not just this one.
https://china-liuzusi.cn/plugin.php?id= ... 1&pid=7379

Then someone made a you tube and also mention this case.


Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:30 am
by TrimePema
WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:24 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:34 am
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:10 pm
I don't understand why one will need trekchod and togal to attain rainbow body. The chinese site reported that a Nyingma lama who refused to practice any other methods other than mandala offering has attained rainbow body.
Impossible to explain.
IMO it seems common for people not to understand in this way until receiving pointing out and some pith instructions. Maybe you could start there?
The explanation is that merit is crucial in actually realising the view. That lama accumulated sufficient merit by persevering in his mandala offering practise and attained the view with no need for pointing out. Is implicit, guru devotion is in his mandala offering practice so he received blessing from his lineage too.
That's not what I meant by "impossible to explain." I was saying it's impossible to explain why one needs trekcho to attain rainbow body. This is something you need to see for yourself - your own nature.

I wasn't saying my conceptual samsaric mind can't overlay and cobble together a set of jargon that could make it "make sense". I was saying it is impossible to explain why it is necessary to be in the natural state to attain rainbow body, in a way that makes sense to you, unless the explanation is a pith instruction that leads the reader to recognize their nature.

Rigpa is impossible to explain outside of pith instructions. Pith instructions need to be practiced immediately upon receiving them. They seem like intellectual statements but actually they are statements that point out rigpa. So I'm not going to try to explain WHY, mechanically, he must have been practicing trekcho in addition to mandala offering. Suffice to say it is the same way everyone does it.
Once rigpa is stabilized the non-ati yanas are still practiced but it's not from the point of view of creating a meditation with your mind (as it was before rigpa was stabilized) it is from the point of view of effortless meditation (because rigpa is stabilized...). In chan this is referred to as well: the 6th patriarch platform sutra states there is no merit outside of "effortless nonmeditation realizing the self nature".

He definitely received pointing out... You can't become a nyingma lama without receiving pointing out...
He did mandala offering from the natural state and so the mandala offerings were pure expressions of rigpa and therefore endlessly meritorious... it is said "if you do 1 prostration as a pure expression of rigpa then you have accumulated all 100,000".

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:20 pm
by Josef
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:10 pm
I don't understand why one will need trekchod and togal to attain rainbow body. The chinese site reported that a Nyingma lama who refused to practice any other methods other than mandala offering has attained rainbow body.
If they attained rainbow body they were practicing trekcho and/or thogal. Perhaps externally it looked as though they only offered mandala, but internally that was not the case if jalu was manifested.

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:43 am
by TrimePema
Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:20 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:10 pm
I don't understand why one will need trekchod and togal to attain rainbow body. The chinese site reported that a Nyingma lama who refused to practice any other methods other than mandala offering has attained rainbow body.
If they attained rainbow body they were practicing trekcho and/or thogal. Perhaps externally it looked as though they only offered mandala, but internally that was not the case if jalu was manifested.
Exactly. See my terrible explanation above for more.

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:14 am
by Pema Rigdzin
WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:24 pm
The explanation is that merit is crucial in actually realising the view. That lama accumulated sufficient merit by persevering in his mandala offering practise and attained the view with no need for pointing out. Is implicit, guru devotion is in his mandala offering practice so he received blessing from his lineage too.
WeiHan, of course you're right that merit is crucial to realizing the view, as are devotion, which causes blessings to enter one's body, speech, and mind. Nevertheless, the realization of the body of light is dependent upon more than devotion, merit, and blessings. It's based on the interdependence between specific methods and functions of the physical body and one's natural state.

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:22 pm
by Tongnyid Dorje
Can I ask, who in this threadd is realy devoted to Troma Nagmo as main practice?

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:42 pm
by Sādhaka
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that it’s good for one’s own practice to tell others what one’s personal main practice is.

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:44 pm
by Könchok Thrinley
Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:42 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that it’s good for one’s own practice to tell others what one’s personal main practice is.
Quite frankly nowadays it is even better not to mention that you practice at all. :lol:

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:39 pm
by WeiHan
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:14 am
WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:24 pm
The explanation is that merit is crucial in actually realising the view. That lama accumulated sufficient merit by persevering in his mandala offering practise and attained the view with no need for pointing out. Is implicit, guru devotion is in his mandala offering practice so he received blessing from his lineage too.
WeiHan, of course you're right that merit is crucial to realizing the view, as are devotion, which causes blessings to enter one's body, speech, and mind. Nevertheless, the realization of the body of light is dependent upon more than devotion, merit, and blessings. It's based on the interdependence between specific methods and functions of the physical body and one's natural state.
This is what I maybe doubtful. As far as I know, Trechok is Samantha with the view. There shouldn't be any difference for a person who realised/attained the view through other methods and are able to maintain in that view or state all the time.

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:01 pm
by Grigoris
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:22 pm
Can I ask, who in this threadd is realy devoted to Troma Nagmo as main practice?
I think it would be safe to assume that nobody discussing Throma Nagmo in this thread has taken her as a yidam. If they had, they wouldn't be discussing it.

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:58 am
by Pema Rigdzin
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:39 pm

This is what I maybe doubtful. As far as I know, Trechok is Samantha with the view. There shouldn't be any difference for a person who realised/attained the view through other methods and are able to maintain in that view or state all the time.
Tregchod is being in knowledge of the true nature; one must be specifically introduced to this knowledge via Dzogchen methods by a qualified guru. However, it is togal that brings realization of the body of light, not tregchod. Tregchod can bring one to the point of dissolving the body into subtle particles, but not a body of light.

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:59 am
by heart
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:39 pm
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:14 am
WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:24 pm
The explanation is that merit is crucial in actually realising the view. That lama accumulated sufficient merit by persevering in his mandala offering practise and attained the view with no need for pointing out. Is implicit, guru devotion is in his mandala offering practice so he received blessing from his lineage too.
WeiHan, of course you're right that merit is crucial to realizing the view, as are devotion, which causes blessings to enter one's body, speech, and mind. Nevertheless, the realization of the body of light is dependent upon more than devotion, merit, and blessings. It's based on the interdependence between specific methods and functions of the physical body and one's natural state.
This is what I maybe doubtful. As far as I know, Trechok is Samantha with the view. There shouldn't be any difference for a person who realised/attained the view through other methods and are able to maintain in that view or state all the time.
That is not what Trechö is, it most certainly don't depend on shamatha or even sitting down on a pillow. It isn't meditation.

/magnus

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:26 am
by WeiHan
heart wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:59 am
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:39 pm
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:14 am


WeiHan, of course you're right that merit is crucial to realizing the view, as are devotion, which causes blessings to enter one's body, speech, and mind. Nevertheless, the realization of the body of light is dependent upon more than devotion, merit, and blessings. It's based on the interdependence between specific methods and functions of the physical body and one's natural state.
This is what I maybe doubtful. As far as I know, Trechok is Samantha with the view. There shouldn't be any difference for a person who realised/attained the view through other methods and are able to maintain in that view or state all the time.
That is not what Trechö is, it most certainly don't depend on shamatha or even sitting down on a pillow. It isn't meditation.

/magnus
There is a YouTube with Alan Wallace quoting Yangthang Rinpoche stating that Trechog is samatha with the view. Of course, if one received the teaching before, there are off sessions practices that may not involve sitting on cushion etc...

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:31 am
by heart
WeiHan wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:26 am
heart wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:59 am
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:39 pm


This is what I maybe doubtful. As far as I know, Trechok is Samantha with the view. There shouldn't be any difference for a person who realised/attained the view through other methods and are able to maintain in that view or state all the time.
That is not what Trechö is, it most certainly don't depend on shamatha or even sitting down on a pillow. It isn't meditation.

/magnus
There is a YouTube with Alan Wallace quoting Yangthang Rinpoche stating that Trechog is samatha with the view. Of course, if one received the teaching before, there are off sessions practices that may not involve sitting on cushion etc...
Well, if you are a student of Allan Wallace then there is nothing in this world that is so important as shamatha. :smile: But I have my own masters.

/magnus

Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:43 pm
by WeiHan
Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:20 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:10 pm
I don't understand why one will need trekchod and togal to attain rainbow body. The chinese site reported that a Nyingma lama who refused to practice any other methods other than mandala offering has attained rainbow body.
If they attained rainbow body they were practicing trekcho and/or thogal. Perhaps externally it looked as though they only offered mandala, but internally that was not the case if jalu was manifested.
Any text to support this? Of course, texts mentioned that trekcho and thogal can results in rainbow body but are there any texts that assert these are the only method?

From a Q&A with Dzongsa Khyentse Rinpoche, when asked whether if one can still attain rainbow body if one does not practice the yoga of body union.

His answer was: Can. There are different methods to attain rainbow body, it can also be attained by practicing six or ten paramitas, even though one may be practicing the Mahayana bodhisattva path, rainbow body can similarly be attained. Actually, rainbow body means that you realise yourselves to be the union of emptiness and luminosity, because rainbow body itself is empty in nature, yet it has colours (red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet...) and it can be seen by our eyes.