Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

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kalden yungdrung
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Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:52 pm

Tashi delek,

As Bönpo. do i have the question, if the Nepali Buddha Shakyamuni would have thought Dzogchen.
This because His known Teachings were mainly written in a kind of "Pali" script , later on palm leaves during a certain Buddhist Council.

- Dzogchen Script is in Sanskrit or Tibetan / Zhang Zhung.
- Is there maybe a Lineage straight coming from one of his Monks / non Monks, regarding Dzogchen (Unbroken Lineage) ?
The best meditation is no meditation

Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:07 pm

Garab Dorje was an emanation of Buddha Shakyamuni.

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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:14 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:52 pm
Tashi delek,

As Bönpo. do i have the question, if the Nepali Buddha Shakyamuni would have thought Dzogchen.
This because His known Teachings were mainly written in a kind of "Pali" script , later on palm leaves during a certain Buddhist Council.

- Dzogchen Script is in Sanskrit or Tibetan / Zhang Zhung.
- Is there maybe a Lineage straight coming from one of his Monks / non Monks, regarding Dzogchen (Unbroken Lineage) ?
Buddha Shakyamunni didn't thaught Atiyoga.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:19 pm

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:07 pm
Garab Dorje was an emanation of Buddha Shakyamuni.
Tashi delek,

Understand it.

Garab Dorje was an emantion of Vajrasattva and in Nyingma seen as an Tulku.

But is that in your opinion seen as an unbroken Lineage ?
( Seen the aforementioned)
The best meditation is no meditation

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Miroku
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by Miroku » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:22 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:19 pm
Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:07 pm
Garab Dorje was an emanation of Buddha Shakyamuni.
Tashi delek,

Understand it.

Garab Dorje was an emantion of Vajrasattva and in Nyingma seen as an Tulku.

But is that in your opinion seen as an unbroken Lineage ?
( Seen the aforementioned)
Well the lineage was not broken therefore it is unbroken.

Buddha Shakyamuni did not teach dzogchen, however his emanation Garab Dorje taught it as was predicted by Buddha.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by haha » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:23 pm

Nepali Buddha. Lol

At one time, I was checking about Three Statements of Prahevajra, I found there were some statements by Sakyamuni that one could associate to Three Statements. Besides, there are some not-buddhist references which are more fitting to it. If one does research, one will definitely find more textual references.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:32 pm

Miroku wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:22 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:19 pm
Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:07 pm
Garab Dorje was an emanation of Buddha Shakyamuni.
Tashi delek,

Understand it.

Garab Dorje was an emantion of Vajrasattva and in Nyingma seen as an Tulku.

But is that in your opinion seen as an unbroken Lineage ?
( Seen the aforementioned)
Well the lineage was not broken therefore it is unbroken.

Buddha Shakyamuni did not teach dzogchen, however his emanation Garab Dorje taught it as was predicted by Buddha.
Tashi delek,

Must say that Garab Dorje is according John Reynolds an emanation of Vajrasattva and Vajrapani, see book "Golden Needles".
Until now it is like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garab_Dorje
The best meditation is no meditation

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:34 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:32 pm
Miroku wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:22 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:19 pm


Tashi delek,

Understand it.

Garab Dorje was an emantion of Vajrasattva and in Nyingma seen as an Tulku.

But is that in your opinion seen as an unbroken Lineage ?
( Seen the aforementioned)
Well the lineage was not broken therefore it is unbroken.

Buddha Shakyamuni did not teach dzogchen, however his emanation Garab Dorje taught it as was predicted by Buddha.
Tashi delek,

Must say that Garab Dorje is according John Reynolds an emanation of Vajrasattva and Vajrapani, see book "Golden Needles".
The Vajra is here clearly inside the Lineage appearing.(Uddhiyana?)
Until now it is like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garab_Dorje
The best meditation is no meditation

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Miroku
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by Miroku » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:51 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:32 pm
Tashi delek,

Must say that Garab Dorje is according John Reynolds an emanation of Vajrasattva and Vajrapani, see book "Golden Needles".
Until now it is like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garab_Dorje
And according to Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche he was a Buddha Shakyamuni manifestation. Sources differ. Lets not make this another Ati Muwer thread.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:02 pm

Miroku wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:51 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:32 pm
Tashi delek,

Must say that Garab Dorje is according John Reynolds an emanation of Vajrasattva and Vajrapani, see book "Golden Needles".
Until now it is like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garab_Dorje
And according to Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche he was a Buddha Shakyamuni manifestation. Sources differ. Lets not make this another Ati Muwer thread.
Well i don´t see it like that.
I encounter here just 3 statements (including Nyingma) which differs that is all.
Makes the story complicated.

On the Ati Muwer story i will come back, no doubt about it. :smile:
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Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:12 pm

Yungdrung, you are posting in the Dzogchen subforum and your question has been adequately answered.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:20 pm

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:12 pm
Yungdrung, you are posting in the Dzogchen subforum and your question has been adequately answered.
Tashi delek,

Well that is what i doubt with three different statements which seems to be valid somehow.
Maybe it is possible to get an explanation about those 3 statements ?

That would make the case more clear to me as outsider.
Until now is my question not at all adequately answered.

So for me missing are the further statement of the Traditions who make the same claim.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:28 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:14 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:52 pm
Tashi delek,

As Bönpo. do i have the question, if the Nepali Buddha Shakyamuni would have thought Dzogchen.
This because His known Teachings were mainly written in a kind of "Pali" script , later on palm leaves during a certain Buddhist Council.

- Dzogchen Script is in Sanskrit or Tibetan / Zhang Zhung.
- Is there maybe a Lineage straight coming from one of his Monks / non Monks, regarding Dzogchen (Unbroken Lineage) ?
Buddha Shakyamunni didn't thaught Atiyoga.
Tashi delek,

Why do you think so ?
The best meditation is no meditation

Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:53 pm

The first of the twelve primordial teachers is Tönpa Nangwa Tampa, the last one is Buddha Shakyamuni who didn’t teach directly Dzogchen teaching. Indeed among the twelve teachers someone taught the Dzogchen teaching directly, someone indirectly. Buddha Shakyamuni did not transmit the Dzogchen teaching, but we consider the Dzogchen teaching a Buddhist teaching because Garab Dorje was an emanation of Buddha Shakyamuni, so his teaching is considered Buddha Shakyamuni’s teaching.
From Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.

http://melong.com/dorje-sempa-namkha-che/

/thread

Simon E.
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:06 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:52 pm
Tashi delek,

As Bönpo. do i have the question, if the Nepali Buddha Shakyamuni would have thought Dzogchen.
This because His known Teachings were mainly written in a kind of "Pali" script , later on palm leaves during a certain Buddhist Council.

- Dzogchen Script is in Sanskrit or Tibetan / Zhang Zhung.
- Is there maybe a Lineage straight coming from one of his Monks / non Monks, regarding Dzogchen (Unbroken Lineage) ?
On a point of order can I ask how this post sits in light of the TOS, particularly with reference to its guidelines re Prosetylising to another religion and Comparative Religion?
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:01 pm

The thread is on thin ice.

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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by florin » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:47 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:52 pm
Tashi delek,

As Bönpo. do i have the question, if the Nepali Buddha Shakyamuni would have thought Dzogchen.
This because His known Teachings were mainly written in a kind of "Pali" script , later on palm leaves during a certain Buddhist Council.

- Dzogchen Script is in Sanskrit or Tibetan / Zhang Zhung.
- Is there maybe a Lineage straight coming from one of his Monks / non Monks, regarding Dzogchen (Unbroken Lineage) ?
Here Buddha Sakyamuni makes a prediction about Garab Dorje.
This prediction is not only about the birth of Garab Dorje into this world but also about him introducing the teaching beyond cause and effect into the human dimension:

“When I have passed beyond this world of sorrow,
Three hundred sixty years from now,
In Uddiyana, land of braided people,
To the daughter of the monarch Uparaja,
Will appear a yogi-child, without a father,
Who is blessed by buddha Vajrasattva
And bears the name Delightful Vajra.
He will spread the doctrine of the Ati teachings.”
Wellsprings of the great perfection.

So I don’t think there is a dzogchen lineage continuing from Buddha to Garab Dorje.

The way Garab Dorje received the lineage and teachings is explained here:
“........the source of the Nyingma tantras is the glorious Samantabhadra who, having awakened within the ground in the primordial eon, taught through the blessings of his ineffable realization the six million four hundred thousand tantras of the effortless Ati vehicle to his retinue of self-radiant awareness, the ocean-like assembly of original wakefulness. Afterwards, the glorious Vajrasattva taught these tantras to the assembly ofvidyadharas, including the nirmanakaya Prahevajra, so that they might gradually flourish in the human world.” Wellsprings of the great perfection.
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:44 pm

florin wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:47 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:52 pm
Tashi delek,

As Bönpo. do i have the question, if the Nepali Buddha Shakyamuni would have thought Dzogchen.
This because His known Teachings were mainly written in a kind of "Pali" script , later on palm leaves during a certain Buddhist Council.

- Dzogchen Script is in Sanskrit or Tibetan / Zhang Zhung.
- Is there maybe a Lineage straight coming from one of his Monks / non Monks, regarding Dzogchen (Unbroken Lineage) ?
Here Buddha Sakyamuni makes a prediction about Garab Dorje.
This prediction is not only about the birth of Garab Dorje into this world but also about him introducing the teaching beyond cause and effect into the human dimension:

“When I have passed beyond this world of sorrow,
Three hundred sixty years from now,
In Uddiyana, land of braided people,
To the daughter of the monarch Uparaja,
Will appear a yogi-child, without a father,
Who is blessed by buddha Vajrasattva
And bears the name Delightful Vajra.
He will spread the doctrine of the Ati teachings.”
Wellsprings of the great perfection.

So I don’t think there is a dzogchen lineage continuing from Buddha to Garab Dorje.

The way Garab Dorje received the lineage and teachings is explained here:
“........the source of the Nyingma tantras is the glorious Samantabhadra who, having awakened within the ground in the primordial eon, taught through the blessings of his ineffable realization the six million four hundred thousand tantras of the effortless Ati vehicle to his retinue of self-radiant awareness, the ocean-like assembly of original wakefulness. Afterwards, the glorious Vajrasattva taught these tantras to the assembly ofvidyadharas, including the nirmanakaya Prahevajra, so that they might gradually flourish in the human world.” Wellsprings of the great perfection.
Tashi delek F,

Thanks for your reply, that makes sense.

Agree with you in that Boeddha Sakyamuni never teached Dzogchen and that was finally my question.

But we see also in Nyingma Dzogchen and Bön, Kuntu Zangpo and like here Samantabhadra as the Adi Buddha.
That means two authentic Dzogchen Lineages, not to forget those Dzogchen Teachings of Guru Rinpoche.

Rests only the interpretation about Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche about that Prahe Vajra woud be an emanation of the Buddha Shakyamuni.
That information was for me brand new, therefore my surprise.
But maybe that point of view can be further explained, very interesting.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:48 pm

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:53 pm
The first of the twelve primordial teachers is Tönpa Nangwa Tampa, the last one is Buddha Shakyamuni who didn’t teach directly Dzogchen teaching. Indeed among the twelve teachers someone taught the Dzogchen teaching directly, someone indirectly. Buddha Shakyamuni did not transmit the Dzogchen teaching, but we consider the Dzogchen teaching a Buddhist teaching because Garab Dorje was an emanation of Buddha Shakyamuni, so his teaching is considered Buddha Shakyamuni’s teaching.
From Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.

http://melong.com/dorje-sempa-namkha-che/

/thread
Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Can you state in which Sutra / terma, this prediction or knowledge stems ?
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Buddha Shakyamuni and Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:11 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:48 pm
Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:53 pm
The first of the twelve primordial teachers is Tönpa Nangwa Tampa, the last one is Buddha Shakyamuni who didn’t teach directly Dzogchen teaching. Indeed among the twelve teachers someone taught the Dzogchen teaching directly, someone indirectly. Buddha Shakyamuni did not transmit the Dzogchen teaching, but we consider the Dzogchen teaching a Buddhist teaching because Garab Dorje was an emanation of Buddha Shakyamuni, so his teaching is considered Buddha Shakyamuni’s teaching.
From Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.

http://melong.com/dorje-sempa-namkha-che/

/thread
Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Can you state in which Sutra / terma, this prediction or knowledge stems ?

Can you state why you're interested in this subject?

It's a little funny to have a Bon practitioner forcefully quizzing Buddhists on questions of authentic historic lineages, frankly.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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