question on distingushing mind from it's nature

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Johnny Dangerous
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question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:03 pm

Could be a Mahamudra question too:

Once a person begins to have some confidence in distinguishing mind from it's nature, is there any particular point in working with conventional thoughts and appearances in meditation anymore, rather than simply resting in the nature of mind? Is it now time to examine the relationship between the nature of mind and the minds contents?
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:06 pm

:popcorn:

Good question.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by amanitamusc » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:28 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:03 pm
Could be a Mahamudra question too:

Once a person begins to have some confidence in distinguishing mind from it's nature, is there any particular point in working with conventional thoughts and appearances in meditation anymore, rather than simply resting in the nature of mind? Is it now time to examine the relationship between the nature of mind and the minds contents?
Rushen practice answers your last question by distinguishing mind from nature of mind.

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:45 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:28 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:03 pm
Could be a Mahamudra question too:

Once a person begins to have some confidence in distinguishing mind from it's nature, is there any particular point in working with conventional thoughts and appearances in meditation anymore, rather than simply resting in the nature of mind? Is it now time to examine the relationship between the nature of mind and the minds contents?
Rushen practice answers your last question by distinguishing mind from nature of mind.
:good:

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:18 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:28 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:03 pm
Could be a Mahamudra question too:

Once a person begins to have some confidence in distinguishing mind from it's nature, is there any particular point in working with conventional thoughts and appearances in meditation anymore, rather than simply resting in the nature of mind? Is it now time to examine the relationship between the nature of mind and the minds contents?
Rushen practice answers your last question by distinguishing mind from nature of mind.
You guys are not quite getting what I'm asking, I know that Rushens and Semde achieve this, the question I am asking is what you are supposed do once you have confidence in the distinction, in terms of contemplation and working with thoughts and appearances.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:27 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:18 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:28 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:03 pm
Could be a Mahamudra question too:

Once a person begins to have some confidence in distinguishing mind from it's nature, is there any particular point in working with conventional thoughts and appearances in meditation anymore, rather than simply resting in the nature of mind? Is it now time to examine the relationship between the nature of mind and the minds contents?
Rushen practice answers your last question by distinguishing mind from nature of mind.
You guys are not quite getting what I'm asking, I know that Rushens and Semde achieve this, the question I am asking is what you are supposed do once you have confidence in the distinction, in terms of contemplation and working with thoughts and appearances.
Integrate. Talk to a teacher and maybe ask for thögal instructions.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:57 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:03 pm
...is there any particular point in working with conventional thoughts and appearances in meditation anymore, rather than simply resting in the nature of mind?
I would say there is a point, because in reality thoughts are none other than the nature of mind. It would be a false dichotomy to say there are thoughts and there is the nature of mind. As far as I am concerned seeing into the nature of thoughts, is the same as experiencing the nature of mind.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:55 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:57 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:03 pm
...is there any particular point in working with conventional thoughts and appearances in meditation anymore, rather than simply resting in the nature of mind?
I would say there is a point, because in reality thoughts are none other than the nature of mind. It would be a false dichotomy to say there are thoughts and there is the nature of mind. As far as I am concerned seeing into the nature of thoughts, is the same as experiencing the nature of mind.
Of course I know this is true in theory. However, there are specific practices in Dzogchen of learning to distinguish mind from it's nature, and to come to some sure sense of what is mind, and what is nature of mind. What i'm wondering is what are the different approaches from this point.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Simon E. » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:10 am

I would suggest Johnny that it not so much learned as entrained.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:14 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:10 am
I would suggest Johnny that it not so much learned as entrained.
Sure. Still, we spend this time learning to distinguish the two, which is obviously a provisional distinction. Does the next step just conform to the Three Statements?
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Fa Dao » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:59 am

Once you are without doubt about the nature of mind the next steps are to stabilize and enhance...
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:06 am

Fa Dao wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:59 am
Once you are without doubt about the nature of mind the next steps are to stabilize and enhance...
Return the original question, it's more specific than that.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Fa Dao » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:19 am

ok, well, my thought would be that once you have without a doubt had an actual discovering of nature of mind there doesn't seem to be much point in working with anything else as all practices in one way or another go towards that. Thats not to say that you cant do secondary practices as needed though i.e practices for obstacles, for illness, long life etc etc
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:34 am

Fa Dao wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:19 am
ok, well, my thought would be that once you have without a doubt had an actual discovering of nature of mind there doesn't seem to be much point in working with anything else as all practices in one way or another go towards that. Thats not to say that you cant do secondary practices as needed though i.e practices for obstacles, for illness, long life etc etc
I'm asking how to work with appearances in contemplation, once you have certainty distinguishing mind from nature of mind, I admit it's a pretty abstract question. I'm not big into secondary practices in the first place. I know like two tantric practices well and couldn't absorb any more;)
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:33 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:34 am
Fa Dao wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:19 am
ok, well, my thought would be that once you have without a doubt had an actual discovering of nature of mind there doesn't seem to be much point in working with anything else as all practices in one way or another go towards that. Thats not to say that you cant do secondary practices as needed though i.e practices for obstacles, for illness, long life etc etc
I'm asking how to work with appearances in contemplation, once you have certainty distinguishing mind from nature of mind, I admit it's a pretty abstract question. I'm not big into secondary practices in the first place. I know like two tantric practices well and couldn't absorb any more;)
Define contemplation?

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Fa Dao » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:34 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:34 am
Fa Dao wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:19 am
ok, well, my thought would be that once you have without a doubt had an actual discovering of nature of mind there doesn't seem to be much point in working with anything else as all practices in one way or another go towards that. Thats not to say that you cant do secondary practices as needed though i.e practices for obstacles, for illness, long life etc etc
I'm asking how to work with appearances in contemplation, once you have certainty distinguishing mind from nature of mind, I admit it's a pretty abstract question. I'm not big into secondary practices in the first place. I know like two tantric practices well and couldn't absorb any more;)
OIC...well then as someone previously mentioned, you work at integration...ChNN said that namkha arted is good for that...re: The Cycle of Day and Night
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:45 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:33 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:34 am
Fa Dao wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:19 am
ok, well, my thought would be that once you have without a doubt had an actual discovering of nature of mind there doesn't seem to be much point in working with anything else as all practices in one way or another go towards that. Thats not to say that you cant do secondary practices as needed though i.e practices for obstacles, for illness, long life etc etc
I'm asking how to work with appearances in contemplation, once you have certainty distinguishing mind from nature of mind, I admit it's a pretty abstract question. I'm not big into secondary practices in the first place. I know like two tantric practices well and couldn't absorb any more;)
Define contemplation?
I asked because this is not the DC forum but if you can rest in your Nature of Mind then that is best.
Since it is not so easy to maintain at least for me.ChNNR asked that we be present of our body, speech and mind.Not judging.
Letting thoughts self liberate.This would include appearances.
As others have said more broadly, integration.
Of course at the heart is Guru Yoga.

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Gyurme Kundrol » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:07 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:34 am
I'm asking how to work with appearances in contemplation, once you have certainty distinguishing mind from nature of mind, I admit it's a pretty abstract question. I'm not big into secondary practices in the first place. I know like two tantric practices well and couldn't absorb any more;)
I cant really answer this question, but:

Jigme Lingpa says:
For a person who is still on the ordinary path of training, when he sees a mountain, in the first moment it is unavoidable not to have the thought "this is a mountain", but in the second moment, because of the perfection of the power of the mind and mental events which analyse the nature of the mountain, the concept of mountain disappears without any trace. At that time, although the appearance of the mountain (in the mind) has not ceased, one will gain experience in dwelling in the ultimate nature, in which there is no apprehension of the appearance of the mountain. Having purified all phenomenal existents as the simultaneous liberation-at-arising, to unify the appearances and mind is the unerring Dzogpa Chenpo.
From "The Practice of Dzogchen" pg. 67.

So I *think* the answer is- just keep going. As appearances arise let them self liberate, and as they do rest in the nature of mind. Without needing to accept or reject anything, one simply enters into this stream of contemplation where appearances arise and fall back into the minds true nature like waves rising, never separate from the ocean from which they appear. No need to grab the waves because they will sink again, and no need to make them because they will surely rise again.

However I also second all suggestions to find a teacher to ask this to, and until then to do your best.

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:19 am

Thanks all, I think I'm getting an idea. That quote is particularly relevant, thanks!
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:47 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:19 am
Thanks all, I think I'm getting an idea. That quote is particularly relevant, thanks!
Make sure to let the idea self liberate. :twothumbsup:

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