Visualisations and Dzogchen

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Miroku wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:06 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:14 pm
Semdzins and Kordo Rushens are meant as preliminaries. Then follows non dual awareness.
So that nondual awareness that is the core of Dzogchen meditation which is non meditation.
That State goes beyond other states, so it was teached and so it was clearly understood and realised by myself
That means i am not partly correct but fully correct.

One can also obtain the non dual State without the practise of the Kordo Rushens and Semdzin, is for the highest level of Understanding Students.

All in all i see clear difference in the Abidng of the Natural State and the non abiding,
As non abiding i see Tantra and that was here finally meant and not the Kordo Rushens and Semdzin as your example.
Yes, however you are not getting the pragmatics of this situation (from linguistical point of view). We are talking about visualisation and its connection to/usage in dzogchen teachings. That means that either it is about visualisation from the point of view of it or visualisation as in anuyoga practices with dzogchen as the completion stage.

So although your answer is correct and very appreciated, it is out of the bowl.

Anyway I am going off topic, so sorry for this. :focus:
Well the pragmatic side of Nature are / can be many , limitless
The illusionary side of all these visualisations are in the Natural State senseless
if we keep them for what they are, they are illusion
Illusions are in Dzogchen Natural State not welcome

Guess as such we can approach all those visualisations, and many THINK that is beneficial for the Dzogchen practise
They can be right according their level of understanding, but others see that as senseless
The best meditation is no meditation
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:51 am
Miroku wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:06 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:14 pm
Semdzins and Kordo Rushens are meant as preliminaries. Then follows non dual awareness.
So that nondual awareness that is the core of Dzogchen meditation which is non meditation.
That State goes beyond other states, so it was teached and so it was clearly understood and realised by myself
That means i am not partly correct but fully correct.

One can also obtain the non dual State without the practise of the Kordo Rushens and Semdzin, is for the highest level of Understanding Students.

All in all i see clear difference in the Abidng of the Natural State and the non abiding,
As non abiding i see Tantra and that was here finally meant and not the Kordo Rushens and Semdzin as your example.
Yes, however you are not getting the pragmatics of this situation (from linguistical point of view). We are talking about visualisation and its connection to/usage in dzogchen teachings. That means that either it is about visualisation from the point of view of it or visualisation as in anuyoga practices with dzogchen as the completion stage.

So although your answer is correct and very appreciated, it is out of the bowl.

Anyway I am going off topic, so sorry for this. :focus:
Well the pragmatic side of Nature are / can be many , limitless
The illusionary side of all these visualisations are in the Natural State senseless
if we keep them for what they are, they are illusion
Illusions are in Dzogchen Natural State not welcome

Guess as such we can approach all those visualisations, and many THINK that is beneficial for the Dzogchen practise
They can be right according their level of understanding, but others see that as senseless
This sounds just as contrived a view as the visualizers...doctrinaire Dzogchen is almost humorous to me.

My take is “Bless me to see illusion as the Dharmadhatu”....
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

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kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:09 pm
heart wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:42 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:21 pm

Tashi delek,

As far as i know are there in Dzogchen no visualizations possible, it is mainly practised in Tantra.
The only visualization, i know in Dzogchen is before the Dzogchen "meditation", here we do the Guru Yoga where visualization is done like we know it in Tantra. Subject and object is here the case.

Because Dzogchen is abiding in the non dual State / Natural State, visualisations are here impossible.
It certainly depends on what you mean with Dzogchen, a lot of Dzogchen cycles (mainly Mengakde and Longde) contain parts with visualisations, nevertheless Guru yoga is an excellent example of visualisation that can be applied to the article I posted.

/magnus
Tashi delek,

With Dzogchen is meant abiding in the non dual State.
if one is thinking , making visualisations etc.one is out of this Natural State.

BEFORE this abiding there is dualism possible like done with Guru Yoga. Here we have object and subject, which never can happen in the Dzogchen practise.
And if this happens etc, then this is not and never seen as Dzogchen, we call it Tantra.

Why do we Guru Yoga before the Dzogchen practise / Meditation which is non meditation?
To get blessings for abiding in this non dual State which is empty of thoughts.
Although your statement might seem correct it actually shows a very limited view. Thinking that visualisations somehow block the natural state, that isn't Dzogchen. Being free of thoughts doesn't mean there are no thoughts. So the deity, like any thought, can arise in the natural state. We say the deity arise as the expression of awareness. This is why you find deity yoga as a part of Longde and Mengakde. As a beginner the deity yoga is a part of the preliminaries but when one is actually practicing the main part of abiding in the natural state deity yoga and other preliminaries also can be used as enhancement. Also the deity's arise quite naturally in the four visions. At least that is what I have heard and what actually makes sense to me.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

heart wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:01 am
kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:09 pm
heart wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:42 pm

It certainly depends on what you mean with Dzogchen, a lot of Dzogchen cycles (mainly Mengakde and Longde) contain parts with visualisations, nevertheless Guru yoga is an excellent example of visualisation that can be applied to the article I posted.

/magnus
Tashi delek,

With Dzogchen is meant abiding in the non dual State.
if one is thinking , making visualisations etc.one is out of this Natural State.

BEFORE this abiding there is dualism possible like done with Guru Yoga. Here we have object and subject, which never can happen in the Dzogchen practise.
And if this happens etc, then this is not and never seen as Dzogchen, we call it Tantra.

Why do we Guru Yoga before the Dzogchen practise / Meditation which is non meditation?
To get blessings for abiding in this non dual State which is empty of thoughts.
Although your statement might seem correct it actually shows a very limited view. Thinking that visualisations somehow block the natural state, that isn't Dzogchen. Being free of thoughts doesn't mean there are no thoughts. So the deity, like any thought, can arise in the natural state. We say the deity arise as the expression of awareness. This is why you find deity yoga as a part of Longde and Mengakde. As a beginner the deity yoga is a part of the preliminaries but when one is actually practicing the main part of abiding in the natural state deity yoga and other preliminaries also can be used as enhancement. Also the deity's arise quite naturally in the four visions. At least that is what I have heard and what actually makes sense to me.

/magnus

:good: This tracks with what I've been taught as well.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by PeterC »

It's interesting how consistently people say "I find visualization difficult". Unless you have impaired cognitive function, you can visualize - for instance, if someone asks you to remember your bed, a picture on your wall, the clothes you're wearing, you generally have no trouble visualizing them. So what they really mean is "I find it difficult to visualize my surroundings transformed into a pure land, with myself and others in pure forms". Well - of course you do. That's sort of the point. There are various texts that have specific and helpful advice on using a support for visualization - e.g., looking at a picture a certain number of times in a day, and recalling it inbetween, etc. - and others that talk about the sequence in which you should form the visualization of the yidam, spending different sessions on different aspects of it, etc. I don't know how widely these techniques are used, but that's probably a better response to "finding visualization difficult" than just not doing it.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

heart wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:01 am
kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:09 pm
heart wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:42 pm

It certainly depends on what you mean with Dzogchen, a lot of Dzogchen cycles (mainly Mengakde and Longde) contain parts with visualisations, nevertheless Guru yoga is an excellent example of visualisation that can be applied to the article I posted.

/magnus
Tashi delek,

With Dzogchen is meant abiding in the non dual State.
if one is thinking , making visualisations etc.one is out of this Natural State.

BEFORE this abiding there is dualism possible like done with Guru Yoga. Here we have object and subject, which never can happen in the Dzogchen practise.
And if this happens etc, then this is not and never seen as Dzogchen, we call it Tantra.

Why do we Guru Yoga before the Dzogchen practise / Meditation which is non meditation?
To get blessings for abiding in this non dual State which is empty of thoughts.
Although your statement might seem correct it actually shows a very limited view. Thinking that visualisations somehow block the natural state, that isn't Dzogchen. Being free of thoughts doesn't mean there are no thoughts. So the deity, like any thought, can arise in the natural state. We say the deity arise as the expression of awareness. This is why you find deity yoga as a part of Longde and Mengakde. As a beginner the deity yoga is a part of the preliminaries but when one is actually practicing the main part of abiding in the natural state deity yoga and other preliminaries also can be used as enhancement. Also the deity's arise quite naturally in the four visions. At least that is what I have heard and what actually makes sense to me.

/magnus
Visualisations don´t belong to the Natural State of abiding , if you agree to this then it is your vision, a wrong vision according Dzogchen.
Visions we have in the Natural State and never visualisations, maybe you are using the wrong terms........
If thoughts appear during our Natural State practice, we do not follow them, then they are self liberating, because they are empty.
That the deities like the wrathful and peaceful ones are inherent present in our heart, that is a fact because we will experience them in the Bardo of dying.
This means that if we practice Tantra correctly, then we recognise that these deities are NEVER coming from outside, like nothing is coming from outside (like Buddhahood)in the Bardo of dying. Therefore why external visualisations accordinmg Tantra?

Then if we are aware of deities in the Thigles during our Natural State they too are self liberated into Nature.
The last vision we have during Thögal is self liberated, that is the last Awareness of the Thögal visions.
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:31 am
kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:51 am
Miroku wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:06 pm

Yes, however you are not getting the pragmatics of this situation (from linguistical point of view). We are talking about visualisation and its connection to/usage in dzogchen teachings. That means that either it is about visualisation from the point of view of it or visualisation as in anuyoga practices with dzogchen as the completion stage.

So although your answer is correct and very appreciated, it is out of the bowl.

Anyway I am going off topic, so sorry for this. :focus:
Well the pragmatic side of Nature are / can be many , limitless
The illusionary side of all these visualisations are in the Natural State senseless
if we keep them for what they are, they are illusion
Illusions are in Dzogchen Natural State not welcome

Guess as such we can approach all those visualisations, and many THINK that is beneficial for the Dzogchen practise
They can be right according their level of understanding, but others see that as senseless

This sounds just as contrived a view as the visualizers...doctrinaire Dzogchen is almost humorous to me.

My take is “Bless me to see illusion as the Dharmadhatu”....
Tashi delek JD,

Everything is self emergent according Dzogchen, it has no cause according Nature.
If we don´t let self liberate objects etc. then we freeze them and they become static, which is not according the law of self liberating.
This is done due to grasping at external objects as seen real etc. which results in karma and the wrong self (feeding)
But nothing is everlasting ( this is in accordance with the Dzogchen view ( so objects will have an end)

So illusion is the freezing of objects due to grasping etc.
Non illusion is that what a Dzogchenpa is doing, not following and feeding visions and let them be for what they are, then self liberating is possible.

Best wishes
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by heart »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:05 am
heart wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:01 am
kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:09 pm

Tashi delek,

With Dzogchen is meant abiding in the non dual State.
if one is thinking , making visualisations etc.one is out of this Natural State.

BEFORE this abiding there is dualism possible like done with Guru Yoga. Here we have object and subject, which never can happen in the Dzogchen practise.
And if this happens etc, then this is not and never seen as Dzogchen, we call it Tantra.

Why do we Guru Yoga before the Dzogchen practise / Meditation which is non meditation?
To get blessings for abiding in this non dual State which is empty of thoughts.
Although your statement might seem correct it actually shows a very limited view. Thinking that visualisations somehow block the natural state, that isn't Dzogchen. Being free of thoughts doesn't mean there are no thoughts. So the deity, like any thought, can arise in the natural state. We say the deity arise as the expression of awareness. This is why you find deity yoga as a part of Longde and Mengakde. As a beginner the deity yoga is a part of the preliminaries but when one is actually practicing the main part of abiding in the natural state deity yoga and other preliminaries also can be used as enhancement. Also the deity's arise quite naturally in the four visions. At least that is what I have heard and what actually makes sense to me.

/magnus
Visualisations don´t belong to the Natural State of abiding , if you agree to this then it is your vision, a wrong vision according Dzogchen.
Visions we have in the Natural State and never visualisations, maybe you are using the wrong terms........
If thoughts appear during our Natural State practice, we do not follow them, then they are self liberating, because they are empty.
That the deities like the wrathful and peaceful ones are inherent present in our heart, that is a fact because we will experience them in the Bardo of dying.
This means that if we practice Tantra correctly, then we recognise that these deities are NEVER coming from outside, like nothing is coming from outside (like Buddhahood)in the Bardo of dying. Therefore why external visualisations accordinmg Tantra?

Then if we are aware of deities in the Thigles during our Natural State they too are self liberated into Nature.
The last vision we have during Thögal is self liberated, that is the last Awareness of the Thögal visions.
Kalden, thoughts are not the natural state but can they appear when you are in recognition of the natural state, no? If not then it will be difficult to explain the three or four modes of self-liberation in the third point of Garab Dorje that is all about self-liberation of thoughts. So visualizations are thoughts and obviously they can appear in the natural state and self-liberate in the natural state. This is what we mean when we say the mind appear as an expression of awareness.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

heart wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:51 am
kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:05 am
heart wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:01 am

Although your statement might seem correct it actually shows a very limited view. Thinking that visualisations somehow block the natural state, that isn't Dzogchen. Being free of thoughts doesn't mean there are no thoughts. So the deity, like any thought, can arise in the natural state. We say the deity arise as the expression of awareness. This is why you find deity yoga as a part of Longde and Mengakde. As a beginner the deity yoga is a part of the preliminaries but when one is actually practicing the main part of abiding in the natural state deity yoga and other preliminaries also can be used as enhancement. Also the deity's arise quite naturally in the four visions. At least that is what I have heard and what actually makes sense to me.

/magnus
Visualisations don´t belong to the Natural State of abiding , if you agree to this then it is your vision, a wrong vision according Dzogchen.
Visions we have in the Natural State and never visualisations, maybe you are using the wrong terms........
If thoughts appear during our Natural State practice, we do not follow them, then they are self liberating, because they are empty.
That the deities like the wrathful and peaceful ones are inherent present in our heart, that is a fact because we will experience them in the Bardo of dying.
This means that if we practice Tantra correctly, then we recognise that these deities are NEVER coming from outside, like nothing is coming from outside (like Buddhahood)in the Bardo of dying. Therefore why external visualisations accordinmg Tantra?

Then if we are aware of deities in the Thigles during our Natural State they too are self liberated into Nature.
The last vision we have during Thögal is self liberated, that is the last Awareness of the Thögal visions.
Kalden, thoughts are not the natural state but can they appear when you are in recognition of the natural state, no? If not then it will be difficult to explain the three or four modes of self-liberation in the third point of Garab Dorje that is all about self-liberation of thoughts. So visualizations are thoughts and obviously they can appear in the natural state and self-liberate in the natural state. This is what we mean when we say the mind appear as an expression of awareness.

/magnus
Tashi delek,

Thoughts / nyams, can come up in the State of Trekchod mostly.

But we do not follow them ,, then they are self liberated.
If we follow thoughts then we finish our Dzogchen practise.

Thoughts have as source the Always Vinjana, are based on karma ,so dualistic of Nature.

Natural State is non dual, if we don't feed thoughts.
Thoughts are based on karma and sure dualistic of nature.

Karma can be eradicated in Dzogchen practice to the root, if we don't follow them, then they are self liberating = diminishing karma.

So I did not deny the upcoming of thoughts.
If there are no thoughts appearing, then the Thogal visions can appear.
With thoughts this is hard to realise
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by heart »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:22 pm
heart wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:51 am
kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:05 am

Visualisations don´t belong to the Natural State of abiding , if you agree to this then it is your vision, a wrong vision according Dzogchen.
Visions we have in the Natural State and never visualisations, maybe you are using the wrong terms........
If thoughts appear during our Natural State practice, we do not follow them, then they are self liberating, because they are empty.
That the deities like the wrathful and peaceful ones are inherent present in our heart, that is a fact because we will experience them in the Bardo of dying.
This means that if we practice Tantra correctly, then we recognise that these deities are NEVER coming from outside, like nothing is coming from outside (like Buddhahood)in the Bardo of dying. Therefore why external visualisations accordinmg Tantra?

Then if we are aware of deities in the Thigles during our Natural State they too are self liberated into Nature.
The last vision we have during Thögal is self liberated, that is the last Awareness of the Thögal visions.
Kalden, thoughts are not the natural state but can they appear when you are in recognition of the natural state, no? If not then it will be difficult to explain the three or four modes of self-liberation in the third point of Garab Dorje that is all about self-liberation of thoughts. So visualizations are thoughts and obviously they can appear in the natural state and self-liberate in the natural state. This is what we mean when we say the mind appear as an expression of awareness.

/magnus
Tashi delek,

Thoughts / nyams, can come up in the State of Trekchod mostly.

But we do not follow them ,, then they are self liberated.
If we follow thoughts then we finish our Dzogchen practise.

Thoughts have as source the Always Vinjana, are based on karma ,so dualistic of Nature.

Natural State is non dual, if we don't feed thoughts.
Thoughts are based on karma and sure dualistic of nature.

Karma can be eradicated in Dzogchen practice to the root, if we don't follow them, then they are self liberating = diminishing karma.

So I did not deny the upcoming of thoughts.
If there are no thoughts appearing, then the Thogal visions can appear.
With thoughts this is hard to realise
Nyam means experience. So it is bliss, clarity and non-thought. So thoughts are not really nyams. But having "no thoughts" is just a nyam and not the natural state. The natural state is free from thoughts, it doesn't mean there are no thoughts. This is an important distinction.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

:good:

As far as I know the nature of mind can most certainly be recognized through the nature of thought, and it is in many practices. How could it be otherwise? How could the nature of thoughts be different from the nature of mind? I'm not talking about hanging out in concepts, but seeing the nature of thought - "illusion" if people prefer that term.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:23 pm :good:

As far as I know the nature of mind can most certainly be recognized through the nature of thought, and it is in many practices. How could it be otherwise? How could the nature of thoughts be different from the nature of mind? I'm not talking about hanging out in concepts, but seeing the nature of thought - "illusion" if people prefer that term.
The Nature of Mind and the Nature of a thought are empty , that was already experienced in Trekchöd i guess so.

What is typical of good thoughts / Nyams, would be that they can dissolve which results in a kind of bliss.
Also the realisation of the emptiness of a thought in case of a non dual awareness of that thought, would cause the arising of a Nyam.

Therefore i stated that in case of the arising of a thought, one should not follow that thought, then there is no object and subject possible.
These Nyams are self emergent in the Trekchöd practise.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:05 am if one is thinking , making visualisations etc.one is out of this Natural State.

BEFORE this abiding there is dualism possible like done with Guru Yoga. Here we have object and subject, which never can happen in the Dzogchen practise.
And if this happens etc, then this is not and never seen as Dzogchen, we call it Tantra.
Take it up with HH Dudjom Rinpoche:
Commentary on The Four-Themed Precious Garland wrote:The inner tantras are those of maha~, anu- and ati- yoga. In their practice you realize pristine awareness (jnana,ye-shes), which is an undivided unity of method and wisdom-in other words the unity of relative and ultimate realities from the point of view of this unity's being a cognitive function. Through the totality of this pristine awareness those things to be abandoned, such as the defilements together with their suffering, are utilized, when then arise, as aspects of the path through the application of appropriate means. This does not mean that you encourage the arisal of defiled states of mind. Rather, there is no need for the deliberate action of "abandoning" delusions; they are automatically transcended with such awareness. This is the distinctive feature of the three higher tantras.
And
Commentary on The Four-Themed Precious Garland wrote:In fact, all three inner tantras are mutually pervasive, incorporating aspects of one another. A certain practice is classified as maha-, anu- or ati-yoga in reference to what is emphasized or is foremost in it. The prominent feature of a maha-yoga practice is the development stage, that of anu-yoga is the completing stage, while that of ati-yoga or Dzogchen is the cultivation of the realization of the void sphere of all things. Each of these practices, however, has development (ma.ha), completing (anu) and Dzogchen (ati) stages.
And:
Commentary on The Four-Themed Precious Garland wrote:The reason why a maha-yoga development stage must be conjoined with an anu- or ati-yoga practice is as follows. If you have not meditated to at least a certain extent on visualizing Guru Rinpoche or some other deity and reciting his mantra, you will have nothing upon which to base your practice of an anu-yoga completing stage. You will lack a context within which to meditate upon the energy-system and voidness. Likewise if you have not trained yourself with a development stage practice of deliberately visualizing a deity and reciting a mantra, you will have no background or basis enabling you in ati-yoga to experience everything spontaneously as a perfect mandala, deity and so forth. Thus the three inner tantras are not practiced separately.
The lesson is a simple one: there is more than one way to crack an egg.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:56 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:05 am if one is thinking , making visualisations etc.one is out of this Natural State.

BEFORE this abiding there is dualism possible like done with Guru Yoga. Here we have object and subject, which never can happen in the Dzogchen practise.
And if this happens etc, then this is not and never seen as Dzogchen, we call it Tantra.
Take it up with HH Dudjom Rinpoche:
Commentary on The Four-Themed Precious Garland wrote:The inner tantras are those of maha~, anu- and ati- yoga. In their practice you realize pristine awareness (jnana,ye-shes), which is an undivided unity of method and wisdom-in other words the unity of relative and ultimate realities from the point of view of this unity's being a cognitive function. Through the totality of this pristine awareness those things to be abandoned, such as the defilements together with their suffering, are utilized, when then arise, as aspects of the path through the application of appropriate means. This does not mean that you encourage the arisal of defiled states of mind. Rather, there is no need for the deliberate action of "abandoning" delusions; they are automatically transcended with such awareness. This is the distinctive feature of the three higher tantras.
And
Commentary on The Four-Themed Precious Garland wrote:In fact, all three inner tantras are mutually pervasive, incorporating aspects of one another. A certain practice is classified as maha-, anu- or ati-yoga in reference to what is emphasized or is foremost in it. The prominent feature of a maha-yoga practice is the development stage, that of anu-yoga is the completing stage, while that of ati-yoga or Dzogchen is the cultivation of the realization of the void sphere of all things. Each of these practices, however, has development (ma.ha), completing (anu) and Dzogchen (ati) stages.
And:
Commentary on The Four-Themed Precious Garland wrote:The reason why a maha-yoga development stage must be conjoined with an anu- or ati-yoga practice is as follows. If you have not meditated to at least a certain extent on visualizing Guru Rinpoche or some other deity and reciting his mantra, you will have nothing upon which to base your practice of an anu-yoga completing stage. You will lack a context within which to meditate upon the energy-system and voidness. Likewise if you have not trained yourself with a development stage practice of deliberately visualizing a deity and reciting a mantra, you will have no background or basis enabling you in ati-yoga to experience everything spontaneously as a perfect mandala, deity and so forth. Thus the three inner tantras are not practiced separately.
The lesson is a simple one: there is more than one way to crack an egg.
Sure you are absolutely right.
One of those approaches would be that Tantra as forerunner is not per se needed for Dzogchen practise.

Tantra is a nice way, as a preliminary for some.
The best meditation is no meditation
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:56 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:05 am if one is thinking , making visualisations etc.one is out of this Natural State.

BEFORE this abiding there is dualism possible like done with Guru Yoga. Here we have object and subject, which never can happen in the Dzogchen practise.
And if this happens etc, then this is not and never seen as Dzogchen, we call it Tantra.
Take it up with HH Dudjom Rinpoche:
Commentary on The Four-Themed Precious Garland wrote:The inner tantras are those of maha~, anu- and ati- yoga. In their practice you realize pristine awareness (jnana,ye-shes), which is an undivided unity of method and wisdom-in other words the unity of relative and ultimate realities from the point of view of this unity's being a cognitive function. Through the totality of this pristine awareness those things to be abandoned, such as the defilements together with their suffering, are utilized, when then arise, as aspects of the path through the application of appropriate means. This does not mean that you encourage the arisal of defiled states of mind. Rather, there is no need for the deliberate action of "abandoning" delusions; they are automatically transcended with such awareness. This is the distinctive feature of the three higher tantras.
And
Commentary on The Four-Themed Precious Garland wrote:In fact, all three inner tantras are mutually pervasive, incorporating aspects of one another. A certain practice is classified as maha-, anu- or ati-yoga in reference to what is emphasized or is foremost in it. The prominent feature of a maha-yoga practice is the development stage, that of anu-yoga is the completing stage, while that of ati-yoga or Dzogchen is the cultivation of the realization of the void sphere of all things. Each of these practices, however, has development (ma.ha), completing (anu) and Dzogchen (ati) stages.
And:
Commentary on The Four-Themed Precious Garland wrote:The reason why a maha-yoga development stage must be conjoined with an anu- or ati-yoga practice is as follows. If you have not meditated to at least a certain extent on visualizing Guru Rinpoche or some other deity and reciting his mantra, you will have nothing upon which to base your practice of an anu-yoga completing stage. You will lack a context within which to meditate upon the energy-system and voidness. Likewise if you have not trained yourself with a development stage practice of deliberately visualizing a deity and reciting a mantra, you will have no background or basis enabling you in ati-yoga to experience everything spontaneously as a perfect mandala, deity and so forth. Thus the three inner tantras are not practiced separately.
The lesson is a simple one: there is more than one way to crack an egg.
Sure you are absolutely right.
One of those approaches would be that Tantra as forerunner is not per se needed for Dzogchen practise.

Tantra is a nice way, as a preliminary for some.
Not what HH Dudjom Rinpoche says.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:32 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:56 pm

Take it up with HH Dudjom Rinpoche:



And



And:



The lesson is a simple one: there is more than one way to crack an egg.
Sure you are absolutely right.
One of those approaches would be that Tantra as forerunner is not per se needed for Dzogchen practise.

Tantra is a nice way, as a preliminary for some.
Not what HH Dudjom Rinpoche says.

Its up to the individual here aboard to make a choice, Tantra or not as forerunner.
Its never obligatory to see Tantra as a forerunner, does not the matter who this advices.
The contrary is namely also truth, that there are Rinpoches who advocate or say that Tantra is NOT per se needed as a forerunner.

- As preliminary in Dzogchen are general seen the Kordo Russhen and Semsde.
- Lama Näldjor is the only form of Tantra i practise in advance / before of abiding in the Natural State.
- This because of the blessings out of the related Dzogchen Cycle of Teachings which enables one to realize Rigpa better.
- As Samaya / Damchig are seen the wrong visions in Dzogchen and they need only to be corrected then one is back into the saddle.
The best meditation is no meditation
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:10 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:32 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm

Sure you are absolutely right.
One of those approaches would be that Tantra as forerunner is not per se needed for Dzogchen practise.

Tantra is a nice way, as a preliminary for some.
Not what HH Dudjom Rinpoche says.

Its up to the individual here aboard to make a choice, Tantra or not as forerunner.
Its never obligatory to see Tantra as a forerunner, does not the matter who this advices.
The contrary is namely also truth, that there are Rinpoches who advocate or say that Tantra is NOT per se needed as a forerunner.

- As preliminary in Dzogchen are general seen the Kordo Russhen and Semsdzin
- Lama Näldjor is the only form of Tantra i practise in advance / before of abiding in the Natural State.
- This because of the blessings out of the related Dzogchen Cycle of Teachings which enables one to realize Rigpa better.
- As Samaya / Damchig are seen the wrong visions in Dzogchen and they need only to be corrected then one is back into the saddle.
The best meditation is no meditation
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Grigoris
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Grigoris »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:09 pmWith Dzogchen is meant abiding in the non dual State.
So deities are not included in the non-dual state? They are seperate to the non-dual state? They are not expressions of the non-dual state? When in HYT we visualise ourselves as the deity, this is not non-duality? This is not abiding in the non-dual state?

Seems to me that you have a serious misunderstanding of HYT Yidam practice.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by PSM »

Integrating visualisations and other mental activity are part of enhancement practice. They are 100% legitimate Dzogchen practices. I've come across it in at least ChNNR's practices and practices in the Chokling Tersar - it is no doubt in other practice lineages etc.

See this, amongst other texts: http://www.rangjung.com/book_title/dzog ... -practice/
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Grigoris »

heart wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:51 amSo visualizations are thoughts...
Initially, when they are contrived, but once the practice is realised...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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