heart wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:41 am
haha wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:23 am
If people know the limitation of deity yoga (i.e. in term of visualization), they are likely to give different opinion. Probably one knows which level of absorption he or she will get with the deity. So, visualization has its own benefits as well as limitations.
Deity in the highest level is the path of transformation, whereas dzogchen is not the path of transformation; it is the path of self-liberation. But it does not mean it cannot use the methods of any yana
. When young children just start to stand and walk, they need some supports; sometimes parents’ hands, sometimes wall or anything that is useful to stand. When they get enough strength, they just walk.
There was a story about a siddha who said his Yidam was the first alphabet.
Having the idea that yidam practice somehow exclude the practice self-liberation seems like a very limited idea to me. It also seems based on the thinking of a gradual path that one somehow have to move away from the practices done in the lower yanas. That is actually the whole idea of the gradualist path, no?
Once you get truly introduced to the natural state this gradual view don't really hold up anymore. Dzogchen isn't really dependent on particular practices, all practices have their limits also Dzogchen practices. Doing Semdzins or Rushan instead of Yidam don't make you more likely to be practicing Dzogchen. Staring at the sky don't make you practice the "three-fold sky" or Trechö, because if that was the case cats and Zen Buddhist would all be practicing Dzogchen.
In fact your metaphor with the child show how stuck you are in the gradual approach haha.
Why would ChNNR continue to do deity retreats his whole life? Not only him, all Dzogchen masters I ever heard of didn't have any problems doing deity practice their whole life. They obviously didn't feel limited by deity yoga. I mentioned it before, all (that I know about) Mengakde cycles of teachings also contain Yidam practices. ChNNR himself told me that without the empowerment Ngondzok Gyalpo you could not practice Longde.
I did not mean that Dzogchen needs to exclude deity yoga. I meant Dzogchen can use methods of any lower yana. However, it is not the main point of Atiyoga.
In the deity yoga, one may experience the essence of dzogchen. But, it is very far away from the dzogchen view. Why? One of the characteristic of Anuttara Deity is related to past tendency; a lot of transformation and purification. Besides that, one has to work with channels and drops. It takes very long times to make them workable. And experience of “clear light” is not that easy or quick.
Even though one may recognize the natural state or dzogchen view, one cannot remain in natural state due to past tendency. Semdzins or Rushan definitely help. Many times, one may remain in Alaya and then he or she thinks resting in the natural state. Semdzins or Rushan definitely help. However, one can use any method that is beneficial. Emphasis of deity yoga and dzogchen is much different. Anyway, one can practice the deity yoga with dzogchen view.
I have no idea of sky gazing in Zen. I have one time experience with a Roshi; there is zero different in direct introduction or that situation could be exception. Except in presentation! In another case, a person related his experience of Keisaku slap with recognition (after receiving probably mahamudra introduction).
In that metaphor, it was intended to deity yoga practice. Maintaining the natural state with imagine deity is just like a child is standing with support. If the person can see naturally arisen vision in any light or in the place where there is no light, it would be better then imagine.
Such masters (i.e. ChNNR) do deity yoga for activities and to benefit others. This is not the main point what he has taught. Besides, he did many activities but they did not make any contradiction.
(It is just the opinion, not a big deal.)