Visualisations and Dzogchen

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:10 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:32 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm

Sure you are absolutely right.
One of those approaches would be that Tantra as forerunner is not per se needed for Dzogchen practise.

Tantra is a nice way, as a preliminary for some.
Not what HH Dudjom Rinpoche says.

Its up to the individual here aboard to make a choice, Tantra or not as forerunner.
Its never obligatory to see Tantra as a forerunner, does not the matter who this advices.
The contrary is namely also truth, that there are Rinpoches who advocate or say that Tantra is NOT per se needed as a forerunner.

- As preliminary in Dzogchen are general seen the Kordo Russhen and Semsde.
- Lama Näldjor is the only form of Tantra i practise in advance / before of abiding in the Natural State.
- This because of the blessings out of the related Dzogchen Cycle of Teachings which enables one to realize Rigpa better.
- As Samaya / Damchig are seen the wrong visions in Dzogchen and they need only to be corrected then one is back into the saddle.
No, that is not the way things are.

You are telling us a Bon story here, which is fine and dandy -- it is certainly a valid story.

It is, however, not the only story, nor even, as far as I know, the dominant one.

In many Nyingma lineages yidam practices are not merely a preliminary to Dzogchen. They may be an enhacement as well, and sometimes a non-optional one, too (to an extent, at least). Your presentation reifies the boundary between tantra and Dzogchen, something which in Nyingma is not really done (or is only rarely done) -- even Kyabje Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche insisted on the inseparability of the three inner tantras, and revealed and transmitted Dzogchen practices that rely on tantric transformation, which in their case is not a mere introduction to a "proper Dzogchen."
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Grigoris »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:38 pmYou are telling us a Bon story here, which is fine and dandy -- it is certainly a valid story.
I think you may find that it is a kalden yundrung story...
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. »

Grigoris wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:55 am
kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:09 pmWith Dzogchen is meant abiding in the non dual State.
So deities are not included in the non-dual state? They are seperate to the non-dual state? They are not expressions of the non-dual state? When in HYT we visualise ourselves as the deity, this is not non-duality? This is not abiding in the non-dual state?

Seems to me that you have a serious misunderstanding of HYT Yidam practice.
Or maybe that is mainstream Bon theory? (The question mark is not rhetorical).

Is it possible that Bon Dzogchen and the Dzogchen that is a manifestation of Buddhadharma are subtly different?
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Sennin »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:38 pm
In many Nyingma lineages yidam practices are not merely a preliminary to Dzogchen. They may be an enhacement as well, and sometimes a non-optional one, too (to an extent, at least). Your presentation reifies the boundary between tantra and Dzogchen, something which in Nyingma is not really done (or is only rarely done) -- even Kyabje Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche insisted on the inseparability of the three inner tantras, and revealed and transmitted Dzogchen practices that rely on tantric transformation, which in their case is not a mere introduction to a "proper Dzogchen."
I agree that the 3 inner tantras are practiced together, even so, the upadesavarga tantras and vidyadharas such as Vimalamitra (and others) do assert Ati Yoga as an independent yana that doesn't rely on the two stages. Also I'm not trying to argue for or against any position just wanted to point that out.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

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Sennin wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:16 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:38 pm
In many Nyingma lineages yidam practices are not merely a preliminary to Dzogchen. They may be an enhacement as well, and sometimes a non-optional one, too (to an extent, at least). Your presentation reifies the boundary between tantra and Dzogchen, something which in Nyingma is not really done (or is only rarely done) -- even Kyabje Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche insisted on the inseparability of the three inner tantras, and revealed and transmitted Dzogchen practices that rely on tantric transformation, which in their case is not a mere introduction to a "proper Dzogchen."
I agree that the 3 inner tantras are practiced together, even so, the upadesavarga tantras and vidyadharas such as Vimalamitra (and others) do assert Ati Yoga as an independent yana that doesn't rely on the two stages. Also I'm not trying to argue for or against any position just wanted to point that out.
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It was never about reliance, that was a straw man. It is about Yidam practice, when done properly, being a practice in non-duality. That is what is taught in Dzogchen and Mahamudra systems. I doubt the Bon system differs.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Sennin wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:16 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:38 pm
In many Nyingma lineages yidam practices are not merely a preliminary to Dzogchen. They may be an enhacement as well, and sometimes a non-optional one, too (to an extent, at least). Your presentation reifies the boundary between tantra and Dzogchen, something which in Nyingma is not really done (or is only rarely done) -- even Kyabje Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche insisted on the inseparability of the three inner tantras, and revealed and transmitted Dzogchen practices that rely on tantric transformation, which in their case is not a mere introduction to a "proper Dzogchen."
I agree that the 3 inner tantras are practiced together, even so, the upadesavarga tantras and vidyadharas such as Vimalamitra (and others) do assert Ati Yoga as an independent yana that doesn't rely on the two stages. Also I'm not trying to argue for or against any position just wanted to point that out.
Example
Not exactly sure that those quotes by Malcolm say that Ati is an independent yana. In Nyingma this kind of teaching, explaining how the view of lower yanas all fail when compared with Dzogchen, is kind of standard. It really doesn't have anything to do with what people practice since you can have the highest view and still practice the lowest yana. For example many monks and nuns are Dzogchen practitioners.

/magnus
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Grigoris wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:10 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:38 pmYou are telling us a Bon story here, which is fine and dandy -- it is certainly a valid story.
I think you may find that it is a kalden yundrung story...
To be fair, I have heard it from Khenpo Tenpa Yungdrung Rinpoche and other Bon luminaries. (I have also heard other acclaimed Bon teachers undermine the tantra-Dzogchen distinction, so for Bonpos it is certainly not a settled dispute either.)
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:18 pm
Grigoris wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:10 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:38 pmYou are telling us a Bon story here, which is fine and dandy -- it is certainly a valid story.
I think you may find that it is a kalden yundrung story...
To be fair, I have heard it from Khenpo Tenpa Yungdrung Rinpoche and other Bon luminaries. (I have also heard other acclaimed Bon teachers undermine the tantra-Dzogchen distinction, so for Bonpos it is certainly not a settled dispute either.)
Ah see, you seems to know the reason why , very good from you :twothumbsup:
Yes we don´t see Tantra NOT as nescessary for Dzogchen practise. But we are also not contra this approaching.
Further are we trained in that the visions in the Bardo come from inside to outside, means we recognise that right on.
So like told before the wrathfull and the peaceful Yidams, they dwell right on in our heart.
At the time of the Bardo we recognize them as coming from inside and not from outside.

This was explained by Karma LIngpa who belongs to Nyingma, i guess so.
Bardo Thrödol, liberating by hearing, Know that these visions etc. are not coming from outside......
But if some of you do Amitabha puja etc. then one can recognise Amida Buddha and one will be reborn there, according that Sutra.
Well this is very good to do that and bypass the Bardo. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Sennin »

heart wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:59 pm
Sennin wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:16 pm
I agree that the 3 inner tantras are practiced together, even so, the upadesavarga tantras and vidyadharas such as Vimalamitra (and others) do assert Ati Yoga as an independent yana that doesn't rely on the two stages. Also I'm not trying to argue for or against any position just wanted to point that out.
Example
Not exactly sure that those quotes by Malcolm say that Ati is an independent yana. In Nyingma this kind of teaching, explaining how the view of lower yanas all fail when compared with Dzogchen, is kind of standard. It really doesn't have anything to do with what people practice since you can have the highest view and still practice the lowest yana. For example many monks and nuns are Dzogchen practitioners.

/magnus
From my understanding each yana is sufficient for awakening utilizing the view and methods of that particular yana. I of course agree with you, I never said people shouldn't practice from other vehicles because I agree the inner tantras can be practiced in unison. :smile:
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Grigoris »

Can we get back to topic?

The topic is a discussion of the article posted by Heart: https://www.lionsroar.com/visualizing-a ... ect-world/

This discussion is not about who has a bigger Dzogchen...

I would recommend people go read the article and discuss the content here.

Thank you.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

IMO it's really the wrong direction to confuse the map with the territory, no matter what lineage or tradition one is from.

It might be said that while visualizations are certainly not neccessary for Dzogchen (what "practice" is neccessary though?) Rushens involve visualization elements too, if we want to go there. Certainly visualizations do not stand in the way of one's practice either, and can be utilized. Getting all doctrinaire about whether or not they are "primary" etc. really seems contrary to general approach in the first place.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Regarding visualizations in my personal Dzogchen practise of abiding in the Natural State, i don´t make use of visualizations.
Maybe this is only counting for the Bön Dzogchen practise, who knows.

Reality is that if i would make use of visualisations in my personal Dzogchen Trekchöd practise, i am right on out of that Natural State, of which is said that it is the non dual State, a State without subject and object.
It means i cannot use at all visualisations in my personal Dzogchen practise named Trekchöd and Thögal.

That is counting for many other Dzopgchenpas i know and have had a conversation with them to know that this is right.

But in Bön Tantra we make use of many visualisations , but here is also explained, we never can be that (external) Yidam.
So maybe that is different in other Tibetan Spiritual Traditions, could be maybe.

Like i explained earlier these wrathful and peaceful entities are dwelling inside us and are in the Bardo of dying never coming from outside.
But if these entities are coming from outside and one can recognise them as such, then there is also a certain liberation possible , like i understood.
To be reborn in a pure paradise (eastern / western)

Both methods can bypass the Bardo and is based on recognition / "remembering " by hearing and without hearing.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

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kalden yungdrung wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:02 pmReality is that if i would make use of visualisations in my personal Dzogchen Trekchöd practise, i am right on out of that Natural State, of which is said that it is the non dual State, a State without subject and object.
It means i cannot use at all visualisations in my personal Dzogchen practise named Trekchöd and Thögal.
Just because you cannot do it, does not mean that it cannot be done.

Out of interest: Did you read the article?

What exactly is it in the article that you object to?
But in Bön Tantra we make use of many visualisations , but here is also explained, we never can be that (external) Yidam.
So maybe that is different in other Tibetan Spiritual Traditions, could be maybe.
Or it could be that you do not have a full understanding of what Yidam practice entails in the Tibetan traditions (including the one you practice)?
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by haha »

If people know the limitation of deity yoga (i.e. in term of visualization), they are likely to give different opinion. Probably one knows which level of absorption he or she will get with the deity. So, visualization has its own benefits as well as limitations.

Deity in the highest level is the path of transformation, whereas dzogchen is not the path of transformation; it is the path of self-liberation. But it does not mean it cannot use the methods of any yana. When young children just start to stand and walk, they need some supports; sometimes parents’ hands, sometimes wall or anything that is useful to stand. When they get enough strength, they just walk.

There was a story about a siddha who said his Yidam was the first alphabet.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by heart »

haha wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:23 am If people know the limitation of deity yoga (i.e. in term of visualization), they are likely to give different opinion. Probably one knows which level of absorption he or she will get with the deity. So, visualization has its own benefits as well as limitations.

Deity in the highest level is the path of transformation, whereas dzogchen is not the path of transformation; it is the path of self-liberation. But it does not mean it cannot use the methods of any yana. When young children just start to stand and walk, they need some supports; sometimes parents’ hands, sometimes wall or anything that is useful to stand. When they get enough strength, they just walk.

There was a story about a siddha who said his Yidam was the first alphabet.
Having the idea that yidam practice somehow exclude the practice self-liberation seems like a very limited idea to me. It also seems based on the thinking of a gradual path that one somehow have to move away from the practices done in the lower yanas. That is actually the whole idea of the gradualist path, no?
Once you get truly introduced to the natural state this gradual view don't really hold up anymore. Dzogchen isn't really dependent on particular practices, all practices have their limits also Dzogchen practices. Doing Semdzins or Rushan instead of Yidam don't make you more likely to be practicing Dzogchen. Staring at the sky don't make you practice the "three-fold sky" or Trechö, because if that was the case cats and Zen Buddhist would all be practicing Dzogchen.
In fact your metaphor with the child show how stuck you are in the gradual approach haha.
Why would ChNNR continue to do deity retreats his whole life? Not only him, all Dzogchen masters I ever heard of didn't have any problems doing deity practice their whole life. They obviously didn't feel limited by deity yoga. I mentioned it before, all (that I know about) Mengakde cycles of teachings also contain Yidam practices. ChNNR himself told me that without the empowerment Ngondzok Gyalpo you could not practice Longde.

/magnus
Last edited by heart on Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Grigoris »

From Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche:

"Kye ho! Noble gathering of male and female disciples-
If the clouds in the sky of pure view are not removed,
The stars and planets, the Yidams will not be seen clearly. Please be certain in your pure view."
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by haha »

heart wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:41 am
haha wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:23 am If people know the limitation of deity yoga (i.e. in term of visualization), they are likely to give different opinion. Probably one knows which level of absorption he or she will get with the deity. So, visualization has its own benefits as well as limitations.

Deity in the highest level is the path of transformation, whereas dzogchen is not the path of transformation; it is the path of self-liberation. But it does not mean it cannot use the methods of any yana. When young children just start to stand and walk, they need some supports; sometimes parents’ hands, sometimes wall or anything that is useful to stand. When they get enough strength, they just walk.

There was a story about a siddha who said his Yidam was the first alphabet.
Having the idea that yidam practice somehow exclude the practice self-liberation seems like a very limited idea to me. It also seems based on the thinking of a gradual path that one somehow have to move away from the practices done in the lower yanas. That is actually the whole idea of the gradualist path, no?
Once you get truly introduced to the natural state this gradual view don't really hold up anymore. Dzogchen isn't really dependent on particular practices, all practices have their limits also Dzogchen practices. Doing Semdzins or Rushan instead of Yidam don't make you more likely to be practicing Dzogchen. Staring at the sky don't make you practice the "three-fold sky" or Trechö, because if that was the case cats and Zen Buddhist would all be practicing Dzogchen.
In fact your metaphor with the child show how stuck you are in the gradual approach haha.
Why would ChNNR continue to do deity retreats his whole life? Not only him, all Dzogchen masters I ever heard of didn't have any problems doing deity practice their whole life. They obviously didn't feel limited by deity yoga. I mentioned it before, all (that I know about) Mengakde cycles of teachings also contain Yidam practices. ChNNR himself told me that without the empowerment Ngondzok Gyalpo you could not practice Longde.

/magnus
I did not mean that Dzogchen needs to exclude deity yoga. I meant Dzogchen can use methods of any lower yana. However, it is not the main point of Atiyoga.

In the deity yoga, one may experience the essence of dzogchen. But, it is very far away from the dzogchen view. Why? One of the characteristic of Anuttara Deity is related to past tendency; a lot of transformation and purification. Besides that, one has to work with channels and drops. It takes very long times to make them workable. And experience of “clear light” is not that easy or quick.

Even though one may recognize the natural state or dzogchen view, one cannot remain in natural state due to past tendency. Semdzins or Rushan definitely help. Many times, one may remain in Alaya and then he or she thinks resting in the natural state. Semdzins or Rushan definitely help. However, one can use any method that is beneficial. Emphasis of deity yoga and dzogchen is much different. Anyway, one can practice the deity yoga with dzogchen view.

I have no idea of sky gazing in Zen. I have one time experience with a Roshi; there is zero different in direct introduction or that situation could be exception. Except in presentation! In another case, a person related his experience of Keisaku slap with recognition (after receiving probably mahamudra introduction).

In that metaphor, it was intended to deity yoga practice. Maintaining the natural state with imagine deity is just like a child is standing with support. If the person can see naturally arisen vision in any light or in the place where there is no light, it would be better then imagine.

Such masters (i.e. ChNNR) do deity yoga for activities and to benefit others. This is not the main point what he has taught. Besides, he did many activities but they did not make any contradiction.

(It is just the opinion, not a big deal.) :namaste:
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

haha wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:23 am If people know the limitation of deity yoga (i.e. in term of visualization), they are likely to give different opinion. Probably one knows which level of absorption he or she will get with the deity. So, visualization has its own benefits as well as limitations.

Deity in the highest level is the path of transformation, whereas dzogchen is not the path of transformation; it is the path of self-liberation. But it does not mean it cannot use the methods of any yana. When young children just start to stand and walk, they need some supports; sometimes parents’ hands, sometimes wall or anything that is useful to stand. When they get enough strength, they just walk.

There was a story about a siddha who said his Yidam was the first alphabet.
Agree Dzogchen is the Path of self Liberation and Tantra is the Path of transformations.
- Now we can ask ourselves why doing transformations if everything is self liberating ?

I know Dzogchenpas who teach Tantra only because some need that, but they themselves keep on going with Dzogchen practise.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka »

Yongdzin Rinpoche says that you should start with Tantric Ngondro, then after that you may/can skip Yidam practice and move onto the Special Preliminaries of Dzogchen and then onto the Main Practices.

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche said that you can skip Tantric Ngondro and start with the Special Preliminaries of Dzogchen and/or the Semdzins; and also suggested a lot of Yidam practices: Particularly for specific circumstances, but also said that they can be complete practices in themselves especially if understood in the context of the Completion Stage Without Characteristics.

Both of these approaches are fine.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Grigoris »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:44 pm- Now we can ask ourselves why doing transformations if everything is self liberating ?
You only need to ask that question if you believe the two are mutually exclusive, which they are not.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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