Visualisations and Dzogchen

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:44 pm
haha wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:23 am If people know the limitation of deity yoga (i.e. in term of visualization), they are likely to give different opinion. Probably one knows which level of absorption he or she will get with the deity. So, visualization has its own benefits as well as limitations.

Deity in the highest level is the path of transformation, whereas dzogchen is not the path of transformation; it is the path of self-liberation. But it does not mean it cannot use the methods of any yana. When young children just start to stand and walk, they need some supports; sometimes parents’ hands, sometimes wall or anything that is useful to stand. When they get enough strength, they just walk.

There was a story about a siddha who said his Yidam was the first alphabet.
Agree Dzogchen is the Path of self Liberation and Tantra is the Path of transformations.
- Now we can ask ourselves why doing transformations if everything is self liberating ?

I know Dzogchenpas who teach Tantra only because some need that, but they themselves keep on going with Dzogchen practise.
Deity is the buddha. When you are transformed you ARE the deity. How could a transformation then hinder staying in a true nature if the object of a transformation is the manifestation of that nature.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

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Miroku wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:17 pmDeity is the buddha. When you are transformed you ARE the deity. How could a transformation then hinder staying in a true nature if the object of a transformation is the manifestation of that nature.
The million dollar question... Let's see now... :popcorn:
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Miroku wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:17 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:44 pm
haha wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:23 am If people know the limitation of deity yoga (i.e. in term of visualization), they are likely to give different opinion. Probably one knows which level of absorption he or she will get with the deity. So, visualization has its own benefits as well as limitations.

Deity in the highest level is the path of transformation, whereas dzogchen is not the path of transformation; it is the path of self-liberation. But it does not mean it cannot use the methods of any yana. When young children just start to stand and walk, they need some supports; sometimes parents’ hands, sometimes wall or anything that is useful to stand. When they get enough strength, they just walk.

There was a story about a siddha who said his Yidam was the first alphabet.
Agree Dzogchen is the Path of self Liberation and Tantra is the Path of transformations.
- Now we can ask ourselves why doing transformations if everything is self liberating ?

I know Dzogchenpas who teach Tantra only because some need that, but they themselves keep on going with Dzogchen practise.
Deity is the buddha. When you are transformed you ARE the deity. How could a transformation then hinder staying in a true nature if the object of a transformation is the manifestation of that nature.
Well that is the point in which i don´t believe.
The Buddha is complete inherent present as the Tson Gang
See also :
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30565

Further are also the wrathful and peaceful Gods / Yidams inside present and will be experienced at the time of the Bardo of dying
Transformations are therefore not necessary everything is already present, nothing is missing in the Natural State.
Like explained why transforming if everything is already present and in this presence, these visions are all self liberating in turn and not transformed.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

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kalden yungdrung wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:38 pmWell that is the point in which i don´t believe.
The Buddha is complete inherent present as the Tson Gang
See also :
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30565

Further are also the wrathful and peaceful Gods / Yidams inside present and will be experienced at the time of the Bardo of dying
Transformations are therefore not necessary everything is already present, nothing is missing in the Natural State.
Like explained why transforming if everything is already present and in this presence, these visions are all self liberating in turn and not transformed.
Gibberish...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:38 pm
Miroku wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:17 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:44 pm

Agree Dzogchen is the Path of self Liberation and Tantra is the Path of transformations.
- Now we can ask ourselves why doing transformations if everything is self liberating ?

I know Dzogchenpas who teach Tantra only because some need that, but they themselves keep on going with Dzogchen practise.
Deity is the buddha. When you are transformed you ARE the deity. How could a transformation then hinder staying in a true nature if the object of a transformation is the manifestation of that nature.
Well that is the point in which i don´t believe.
The Buddha is complete inherent present as the Tson Gang
See also :
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30565

Further are also the wrathful and peaceful Gods / Yidams inside present and will be experienced at the time of the Bardo of dying
Transformations are therefore not necessary everything is already present, nothing is missing in the Natural State.
Like explained why transforming if everything is already present and in this presence, these visions are all self liberating in turn and not transformed.

The master replied: Realize that you and the yidam deity are not two and that there is no yidam deity apart from yourself. You approach the yidam deity when you realize that your nature is the state of nonarising dharmakaya.
source:https://buddhaweekly.com/guru-rinpoche- ... dam-deity/

I am sorry but this is not something to believe in, it is a fact of the path. Ofc if you can self liberate then it is better to self liberate, however transformation can easily get you into the state where self liberation is possible. Stop pretending like those two subjects are that much apart that they cannot be merged very easily. Also you do not believe that the yidam is enlightened state? Surely you do not want us to believe that bönpos practice non-enlightened yidams. This is the last I am going to say to this topic as it is fairly pointless to discuss with you, be it this topic, Buddha Shakyamuni or Ati Muwer.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by amanitamusc »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:42 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:38 pmWell that is the point in which i don´t believe.
The Buddha is complete inherent present as the Tson Gang
See also :
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30565

Further are also the wrathful and peaceful Gods / Yidams inside present and will be experienced at the time of the Bardo of dying
Transformations are therefore not necessary everything is already present, nothing is missing in the Natural State.
Like explained why transforming if everything is already present and in this presence, these visions are all self liberating in turn and not transformed.
Gibberish...
Not at all.He is saying the deity's are present within all beings.If one is has this knowledge there is no need for transformation.They arise and
and self liberate effortlessly.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by pemachophel »

Kalden-la,

Can you tell me, please, who's doing the transformation in the first place?
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by pemachophel »

Exactly! "They arise and self-liberate effortlessly" from the Dharmakaya. So why discuss this one way or the other?

Do, don't do. They neither improve nor detract from the natural state.

However, they may illusorily benefit illusory sentient beings by dispelling illusory suffering and generating illusory benefit and ease.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

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kalden yungdrung wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:38 pmFurther are also the wrathful and peaceful Gods / Yidams inside present and will be experienced at the time of the Bardo of dying
Transformations are therefore not necessary everything is already present, nothing is missing in the Natural State.
Like explained why transforming if everything is already present and in this presence, these visions are all self liberating in turn and not transformed.
Bits like these show that conversations such as the present one are really a (mostly pointless) detour into the world of abstractions.

To really talk about it (it = the relationship between the path of transformation and the path of self-liberation) at all one would need to clarify what *exactly* is meant by transformation and how *exactly* it is applied on the cushion, moment after moment -- and then set it against self-liberation, again, not as a theoretical model, but as it is *actually* applied on the cushion.

If you dare, do have a good look here:
http://milarepaiowa.org/wp-content/uplo ... -Color.pdf
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

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If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:44 pm
Agree Dzogchen is the Path of self Liberation and Tantra is the Path of transformations.
- Now we can ask ourselves why doing transformations if everything is self liberating ?

I know Dzogchenpas who teach Tantra only because some need that, but they themselves keep on going with Dzogchen practise.
because we still get burned when we put our hand into the fire.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by amanitamusc »

pemachophel wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:26 pm Exactly! "They arise and self-liberate effortlessly" from the Dharmakaya. So why discuss this one way or the other?

Do, don't do. They neither improve nor detract from the natural state.

However, they may illusorily benefit illusory sentient beings by dispelling illusory suffering and generating illusory benefit and ease.
Yes.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

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amanitamusc wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:03 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:42 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:38 pmWell that is the point in which i don´t believe.
The Buddha is complete inherent present as the Tson Gang
See also :
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30565

Further are also the wrathful and peaceful Gods / Yidams inside present and will be experienced at the time of the Bardo of dying
Transformations are therefore not necessary everything is already present, nothing is missing in the Natural State.
Like explained why transforming if everything is already present and in this presence, these visions are all self liberating in turn and not transformed.
Gibberish...
Not at all.He is saying the deity's are present within all beings.If one is has this knowledge there is no need for transformation.They arise and
and self liberate effortlessly.
This understanding is already a part of practically every tantric approach beyond Kriya yoga, maybe even within Kriya yoga. So the idea that lots of tantric practitioners see Yidam deities as separate from themselves in nonsensical, and contrary to how any teacher of Tantra I've had would teach it...in other words, as a criticism in this context, the comments make no sense.

I would again bring up that many of the same things one is doing in deity yoga, one is doing in Rushens in a sort of distilled form also...so the strict separation here is just for clear praxis IMO...and not much of a real thing in practice.

I don't know why this discussion comes up here so often, it's a little silly for people to take everything that isn't simply resting in the natural state and say "that's not Dzogchen"...it's a very pedantic argument, of very little practical value from my point of view.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. »

:good:

With a caveat that applies not to that post, but as a general observation.

Resting in the natural mind in Dzogchen terms is never, can never, be self-started.

It always needs Pointing Out. There are no exceptions.

Any condition that resembles the natural mind as discovered in Dzogchen is, in the absence of formal Pointing Out, something other than natural mind.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

pemachophel wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:17 pm Kalden-la,

Can you tell me, please, who's doing the transformation in the first place?
Tashi delek PC,

I will elucidate here then the view of Bönpo Dzogpa Chenpo and their objections to the higher Tantras.

The text stems from John Reynolds alias Vajranatha who has his experience as well in Vajrayana as well Bön.
So this man knows very well Dorje Thekpa Tantra as well Bön Tantra principles.
Further has he also experiences with the Sangha of Namkhai Norbu as well with his teachings.
As Bönpo am i on one line with his interpretation e.g. visions about what is Dzogchen in relation to Tantra.

=========================

By: John Reynolds


Fourth Contradiction - The Higher Tantra

In the Bönpo system, there are 4 kinds of Tantra.

- The two Lower Tantras are the Kriya Tantra (bya-ba'i rgyud) and Charya Tantra (spyod-pa'i rgyud).
- The two Higher Tantras are called Yeshen gyi Gyud (ye-gshen gyi rgyud) and Yeshen chenpo Gyud (ye-gshen chen-po'i rgyud).
The distinction here is somewhat similar to the distinction between Mahayoga Tantra and Anuyoga Tantra in the Nyingmapa system, and the distinction between Father Tantra and Mother Tantra in the Sarmapa system.

The practitioner of the Higher Tantras asserts that we know both awareness (rig-pa) and contemplation or equipoise (mnyam-bzhag, samadhi). All the deities spontaneously exist; this is the view of Yeshen gyi Gyud. Therefore, the Knowledge Being and the Symbolic Being are like brothers, and what we unify here is bliss (bde-ba) and emptiness (=bde stong zung-'jug).

All the deities and the universe itself are visualized as arising from the dimension of space (dbyings =Shunyata). Everything is connected with Shunyata and is a manifestation arising out of Shunyata. We meditate on these visualizations and discover that everything arises from this cycle of Dimension and Primordial Awareness (dbyings dang ye-shes). So there can be no better view than this!


To this the Dzogchenpa replies:
You Tantrikas are still grasping ('dzin-pa) at knowing Shunyata as an object. But our Dzogchen view is beyond all grasping at anything. We do not create anything whatsoever with the mind, such as visualizations of deities and mandalas. We do not come to any conclusions nor create anything, but we go directly to the Natural State.
Therefore, our Dzogchen view is the higher. You Tantrikas are always playing like children, that is, playing with discursive thoughts. You are always trying to create or to dissolve something. And this mind-created cycle is never finished.
But Dzogchen is not bounded by thoughts. All of the lower vehicles are bounded by this sickness (or obsession with) discursive thoughts, but the Natural State is primordially beyond all thoughts and actions.

In the Higher Tantras, you assert that all the deities are reflections or manifestations (rtsal) of the state of emptiness and that they are not created by thoughts. You say that Dzogrim represents reality! They are not just mindmade visualizations, as is the case with Kyerim practice.

Everything exists spontaneously. Yet you have to visualize deities and mandalas. You are perpetually creating things with the mind, and so you are always limited by thoughts. You are tied up with thoughts. This is not at all compatible with Dzogchen.

Dzogchen is primordially liberated from all thoughts and deliberate actions. In it, there is nothing artificial or contrived.
Therefore, it represents the highest view.

These replies clearly indicate why Dzogchen is the deepest and highest (zab rgyas) view. We should know these reasons why Dzogchen represents the highest view; otherwise the assertion means nothing. For the practice of Dzogchen, it is necessary to understand the Natural State, but it is not necessary to create anything intellectually or experientially in order to find ourselves in the Natural State. :cheers:
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Tashi delek,

In addition, the view regarding Tantra, by H.E. the Bön Yongdzin Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche one of the highest Dzogchen Masters in the Bön Dzogchen Lineages.

Look here at the end of the page, where Lopon Tenzin Namdak gives his explanation regarding the practise of Tantra and Dzogchen.
His explanation is followed , certainly by many Dzogchenpas including John Reynolds / Vajranatha, no doubt about it.

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=21813&start=40
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka »

Yes, however even though Yongdzin Rinpoche will give Dzogchen Teaching to those who have not yet done Tantra Ngondro, and even though he says that one can skip Yidam practice; he still says that in general his students should do the Tantric Ngondro and the Special Preliminaries of Dzogchen before moving on to the main practices.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

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kalden yungdrung wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:13 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:50 pm Yes, however even though Yongdzin Rinpoche will give Dzogchen Teaching to those who have not yet done Tantra Ngondro, and even though he says that one can skip Yidam practice; he still says that in general his students should do the Tantric Ngondro and the Special Preliminaries of Dzogchen before moving on to the main practices.
Well he also states that we have 3 level of students, according their level of understanding.

This is not applicable for the highest level of understanding students.

Agree if confusion and bad karma is great then one must start down on the ladder

But also here counts that Dzogchen is highest goal.

So in Bon is Dzogchen known in Sutra ,Tantra as preliminary to Dzogchen.
Yongdzin Rinpoche wrote: But don't think an advanced practitioner (who does other things) doesn 't support Dzogchen; he / she is already an advanced practitioner of Dzogchen. But besides that, according to the situation, his neighbours or family etc, he does something.
It actually seems to be saying the opposite of what you are saying.

Always this discussion is basically a contest of who is the most "advanced" practitioner. How people can even engage in such a conversation with a straight face is beyond me. If one is self-identifying as the highest level of practitioner, so advanced that they can speak this way without it qualifying as simply disparaging the lower vehicles...there's a lot to unpack there, to say the least.

As a student of ChNN, I also was taught that uncommon ngondro etc. is not necessary, so a lot of this not controversial to me at all. However, that is different than saying one might as well not do it. As it's said, practices are like patches on clothes, we are continually applying them until they fall off and we apply another etc.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by amanitamusc »

heart wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:51 pm Here is an interesting article on deity yoga written by the amazing translator and wonderful person Heidi Köppel:
https://www.lionsroar.com/visualizing-a ... ect-world/
I find it particular interesting for all us aspiring Dzogchen practitioner.

/magnus
Thanks Magnus.It is a very informative article on" Vajrayana and Visualization".
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:28 pm
The point is just that Tantra is not necessary for to be Dzogchenpa that is the core here.
Nobody here stated that.
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Re: Visualisations and Dzogchen

Post by amanitamusc »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:48 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:13 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:50 pm Yes, however even though Yongdzin Rinpoche will give Dzogchen Teaching to those who have not yet done Tantra Ngondro, and even though he says that one can skip Yidam practice; he still says that in general his students should do the Tantric Ngondro and the Special Preliminaries of Dzogchen before moving on to the main practices.
Well he also states that we have 3 level of students, according their level of understanding.

This is not applicable for the highest level of understanding students.

Agree if confusion and bad karma is great then one must start down on the ladder

But also here counts that Dzogchen is highest goal.

So in Bon is Dzogchen known in Sutra ,Tantra as preliminary to Dzogchen.
Yongdzin Rinpoche wrote: But don't think an advanced practitioner (who does other things) doesn 't support Dzogchen; he / she is already an advanced practitioner of Dzogchen. But besides that, according to the situation, his neighbours or family etc, he does something.
.

Always this discussion is basically a contest of who is the most "advanced" practitioner.
I don't see this at all since it is impossible to see another persons state unless you are a Master.
We need to respect each other and not presume things that we don't know of.
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