Bon Dzogchen

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javier.espinoza.t
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Bon Dzogchen

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:13 am

Hi all,

Just want to know if 'Bon Dzogchen' comes from Prahevajra transmission (Atiyoga) or not.

Cheers!

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:49 am

Bönpo Dzogchen is from Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche, not from Tönpa Garab Dorje.

In ‘New Bön’ there is some connection to Guru Padmasambhava.

Also there is what is called the Bön of India, but I do not think that it has any direct connection to Tönpa Garab Dorje.

There was a Bönpo called Zhang Zhung Garab, but it’s uncertain as to whether this is the same individual as Tönpa Garab Dorje.

There are a lot of threads about this in the Bön subforum.

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:01 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:49 am
Bönpo Dzogchen is from Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche, not from Tönpa Garab Dorje.

In ‘New Bön’ there is some connection to Guru Padmasambhava.

Also there is what is called the Bön of India, but I do not think that it has any direct connection to Tönpa Garab Dorje.

There was a Bönpo called Zhang Zhung Garab, but it’s uncertain as to whether this is the same individual as Tönpa Garab Dorje.

There are a lot of threads about this in the Bön subforum.
so, transmissions of Garab Dorje and of Sherab Miwo aren't connected. so it is?

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:25 am

Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche appeared sometime between the appearance of Ngöndzog Gyalpo and Tönpa Garab Dorje (the latter a emanation of Shakya Thubpa (Buddha Shakyamuni)):

http://melong.com/twelve-primordial-masters/

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:54 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:25 am
Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche appeared sometime between the appearance of Ngöndzog Gyalpo and Tönpa Garab Dorje (the latter a emanation of Shakya Thubpa (Buddha Shakyamuni)):

http://melong.com/twelve-primordial-masters/
i'm not asking when he appeared, i'm asking if his transmission is connected to Garab Dorje's or not.

The end point is to know if the term dzogchen inbetween Bon and Buddhism is a mere coincidence, and then if Bon Dzogchen transmission has anything to do with Atiyoga transmission.

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:04 am

Well it couldn’t be an mere coincidence. Both streams of Dzogchen are from Kuntuzangpo, therefore in the end that is all that matters right:

http://shenten.org/index.php?option=com ... 93&lang=en

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:33 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:04 am
Well it couldn’t be an mere coincidence.

Both streams of Dzogchen are from Kuntuzangpo, therefore in the end that is all that matters right.
yet they don't belong to the same transmission.

i can't find the connection between Sherab Miwo and Garab Dorje, appart that they supposedly realized the same knowledge (let's forget that Garab Dorje was a pure nirmanakaya for instance), so i tend to think that the teachings that arised from both's transmissions aren't the same (but obviously point out to the same). So methods of Bon Dzogchen ans of Atiyoga aren't the same vehicle nor are usefully comparable. Are they?

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:57 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:33 am
yet they don't belong to the same transmission.

Ultimately they do; like I said, the transmission of Kuntu Zangpo or Samantabhadra.

Beyond that, it’s a huge topic and not so easy to trace the relative and specific transmission connections, or lack thereof (see Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s The Light of Kailash series for example).

Oh and here:

According to Yungdrung Bön, the Buddha Shakyamuni was once a student of Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche:

viewtopic.php?t=30787&start=20#p486293

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:10 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:13 am
Hi all,

Just want to know if 'Bon Dzogchen' comes from Prahevajra transmission (Atiyoga) or not.

Cheers!
Bön Dzogchen has 4 Cycles of Dzogchen Teachings .

Zhang Zhung Nyengyud is an UNBROKEN lineage which goes back to the Dharmakaya Buddha Kuntu Zangpo, also known in other Dzogchen Cycles of teachings as Samantabhadra.

The ZZNG transmission goes from the Adi Buddha Kuntu Zangpo to Shenla Ödkar and then further.

Prahevajra or Garab Dorje is seen in Bön as Zhang Zhung Garab Dorje, so he belongs to the interrupted Zhang Zhung Nyengyud Lineage and got from Khred sras rGyalpo teachings, see chart which was made on the advice of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, the most senior Teacher in Bön and Rigdzin of the Zhang Zung Nyengyud Dzogchen Lineage, which is as said before an UNBROKEN lineage.

The interrupted Lineage goes back to Sangwa Dupa and Garab Dorje belongs to this Lineage within Bön.
So Zhang Zhung Garab Dorje is member of the Zhang Zhung Dzogchen Lineage, according Bön.


See below the chart of the ZZNG Dzogchen Lineage Masters, a chart made with the support of Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:00 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:16 am

CHART 1:



:
ZZ Lineage - 02.jpg
ZZ Lineage - 02.jpg (178.14 KiB) Viewed 1608 times
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:18 am

CHART 2.




:
ZZ Lineage - 01.jpg
ZZ Lineage - 01.jpg (190.69 KiB) Viewed 1606 times
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:13 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:10 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:13 am
Hi all,

Just want to know if 'Bon Dzogchen' comes from Prahevajra transmission (Atiyoga) or not.

Cheers!
Bön Dzogchen has 4 Cycles of Dzogchen Teachings .

Zhang Zhung Nyengyud is an UNBROKEN lineage which goes back to the Dharmakaya Buddha Kuntu Zangpo, also known in other Dzogchen Cycles of teachings as Samantabhadra.

The ZZNG transmission goes from the Adi Buddha Kuntu Zangpo to Shenla Ödkar and then further.

Prahevajra or Garab Dorje is seen in Bön as Zhang Zhung Garab Dorje, so he belongs to the interrupted Zhang Zhung Nyengyud Lineage and got from Khred sras rGyalpo teachings, see chart which was made on the advice of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, the most senior Teacher in Bön and Rigdzin of the Zhang Zung Nyengyud Dzogchen Lineage, which is as said before an UNBROKEN lineage.

The interrupted Lineage goes back to Sangwa Dupa and Garab Dorje belongs to this Lineage within Bön.
So Zhang Zhung Garab Dorje is member of the Zhang Zhung Dzogchen Lineage, according Bön.


See below the chart of the ZZNG Dzogchen Lineage Masters, a chart made with the support of Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
Buddha Shakyamunni attained buddhahood attained total realization countless eons ago...

this arguments looks are very fanatic-biased.

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:31 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:57 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:33 am
yet they don't belong to the same transmission.

Ultimately they do; like I said, the transmission of Kuntu Zangpo or Samantabhadra.

Beyond that, it’s a huge topic and not so easy to trace the relative and specific transmission connections, or lack thereof (see Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s The Light of Kailash series for example).

Oh and here:

According to Yungdrung Bön, the Buddha Shakyamuni was once a student of Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche:

viewtopic.php?t=30787&start=20#p486293
Samantabhadra is not a guy... its a representation.

i'm not trying to validate or negate validity of Bon Dzogchen. That isn't the point.

btw, did SM thaught Thogal?

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:40 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:57 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:33 am
yet they don't belong to the same transmission.

Ultimately they do; like I said, the transmission of Kuntu Zangpo or Samantabhadra.

Beyond that, it’s a huge topic and not so easy to trace the relative and specific transmission connections, or lack thereof (see Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s The Light of Kailash series for example).

Oh and here:

According to Yungdrung Bön, the Buddha Shakyamuni was once a student of Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche:

viewtopic.php?t=30787&start=20#p486293



But not according to any source other than pretty late Bon ones...strange that. :?:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:55 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:13 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:10 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:13 am
Hi all,

Just want to know if 'Bon Dzogchen' comes from Prahevajra transmission (Atiyoga) or not.

Cheers!
Bön Dzogchen has 4 Cycles of Dzogchen Teachings .

Zhang Zhung Nyengyud is an UNBROKEN lineage which goes back to the Dharmakaya Buddha Kuntu Zangpo, also known in other Dzogchen Cycles of teachings as Samantabhadra.

The ZZNG transmission goes from the Adi Buddha Kuntu Zangpo to Shenla Ödkar and then further.

Prahevajra or Garab Dorje is seen in Bön as Zhang Zhung Garab Dorje, so he belongs to the interrupted Zhang Zhung Nyengyud Lineage and got from Khred sras rGyalpo teachings, see chart which was made on the advice of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, the most senior Teacher in Bön and Rigdzin of the Zhang Zung Nyengyud Dzogchen Lineage, which is as said before an UNBROKEN lineage.

The interrupted Lineage goes back to Sangwa Dupa and Garab Dorje belongs to this Lineage within Bön.
So Zhang Zhung Garab Dorje is member of the Zhang Zhung Dzogchen Lineage, according Bön.


See below the chart of the ZZNG Dzogchen Lineage Masters, a chart made with the support of Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
Buddha Shakyamunni attained buddhahood attained total realization countless eons ago...

this arguments looks are very fanatic-biased.
Yes it is for you, can happen, no doubt about it , but not and never in the world of Bön.
A very fanatic biased opinion, would have Bön ?
The answer is motivated and stored for a very long time in the Bön Culture.
Well you have here the final answer and you have to do it with that.
Can understand very well that this story makes many Tibetans uncomfortable as well many other Bön stories.
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:58 pm

£$&^@ wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:40 pm
Sādhaka wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:57 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:33 am
yet they don't belong to the same transmission.

Ultimately they do; like I said, the transmission of Kuntu Zangpo or Samantabhadra.

Beyond that, it’s a huge topic and not so easy to trace the relative and specific transmission connections, or lack thereof (see Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s The Light of Kailash series for example).

Oh and here:

According to Yungdrung Bön, the Buddha Shakyamuni was once a student of Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche:

viewtopic.php?t=30787&start=20#p486293



But not according to any source other than pretty late Bon ones...strange that. :?:
We mean here the Zhang Zhung Bön and not Bön Sarma.
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:29 pm

IN ADDITION:


The Lineage
In order to understand the uniqueness of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud and the tremendous importance of its Single Lineage, we should take a quick glance at the origins of this most revered Bönpo Dzogchen cycle.

Originating from Kuntu Zangpo, the Mind to Mind Transmission beyond words passed through the 9 Dersheg­ Buddhas:

l. Yenyi Tonpa (Bönku Kuntu Zangpo)
2. Thugjei Tonpa (Dzogku Shenlha Okar)
3. Trulpai Tonpa (Shenrab Chenpo)
4. Rigpai Tonpa (Tseme Oden)
5. Trulshen Nangden
6. Bamang Khujyug
7. Zangza Ringtslin (Sherab Jamma)
8. Chimey Tsugphti
9. Sangwa Dupa


It is important to note that, according to Yongdzin Rinpoche, the Bonku, Tulku and Dzogku Dersheg-Buddhas at the beginning of this lineage all represent the 3 aspects of Tönpa Shenrab Miwo, the founder of Yungdrung Bön and the origin of this Zhang Zhung Nyengvud cycle of Dzogchen.

Thus Kuntu Zangpo, Shenlha Okar and Shenrab Chenpo are not some abstract, general spiritual entities similar to the notion of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God but represent respectively Body, Speech and Mind of the Bonpo Buddha Shenrab Miwo.

- Tseme Oden is an emanation of Tönpa Shenrab.

- Trulshen Nangden and Zangza Ringtstin (Sherab Jamma, Loving Goddess of Wisdom, comparable to the Buddhist Prajnaparamita) are parents of Chimey Tsugphu, the emanation of Tönpa Shenrab in the realm of the gods before his incarnation on this earth.

- Barnang Khujyug, also a form of Shenrab Miwo, manifested as a blue celestial cuckoo and landed on the shoulder of Zangza Ringtstin while she was taking a bath, thus producing an immaculate conception which resulted in the birth of the above-mentioned Chimey Tsugphu.

Sangwa Dupa, the last Dersheg-Buddha in the Mind to Mind lineage, was born in Tagzig and then ascended to the heavenly realm to study the precepts of Tantra and Dzogchen under Chimey Tsugphu who was residing there. Sangwa Dupa later incarnated in India as Buddha Shakyamuni and propagated the Buddha-Dharma which in Bönpo understanding is a form of the Universal Indestructible Doctrine known as Drungmu Gyer in the language of Tagzig and Zhang Zhung, and as Yungdrung Bön in Tibetan.

Therefore Bönpos revere Indian Buddhism as an authentic teaching concordant with the tenets of their own tradition. When asked in Amsterdam in 1995 why then Bönpos didn't practise Indian Buddhism, Yongdzin Rinpoche replied that it is because Yungdrung Bön itself is so vast that practising and preserving it leaves time for little else. Despite being very busy with this mammoth task, Yongdzin Rinpoche has himself studied tenets of various Schools of Tibetan Buddhism, in particular works of Longchen Rabjyampa whom he holds in high regard.

By:
H.E. the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche
Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud- Zhang Zhung Nyengyud Masters
Pith instructions form the Experiential Transmission of Bönpo Dzogchen
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:04 pm

£$&^@ wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:40 pm
Sādhaka wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:57 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:33 am
yet they don't belong to the same transmission.

Ultimately they do; like I said, the transmission of Kuntu Zangpo or Samantabhadra.

Beyond that, it’s a huge topic and not so easy to trace the relative and specific transmission connections, or lack thereof (see Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s The Light of Kailash series for example).

Oh and here:

According to Yungdrung Bön, the Buddha Shakyamuni was once a student of Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche:

viewtopic.php?t=30787&start=20#p486293



But not according to any source other than pretty late Bon ones...strange that. :?:
that's a good point. Ancient Bon was something different that nowadays Bon.

Do you have eference that if Sherab Miwo thaught thogal? i'm interested in knowing that.

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:09 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:55 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:13 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:10 am


Bön Dzogchen has 4 Cycles of Dzogchen Teachings .

Zhang Zhung Nyengyud is an UNBROKEN lineage which goes back to the Dharmakaya Buddha Kuntu Zangpo, also known in other Dzogchen Cycles of teachings as Samantabhadra.

The ZZNG transmission goes from the Adi Buddha Kuntu Zangpo to Shenla Ödkar and then further.

Prahevajra or Garab Dorje is seen in Bön as Zhang Zhung Garab Dorje, so he belongs to the interrupted Zhang Zhung Nyengyud Lineage and got from Khred sras rGyalpo teachings, see chart which was made on the advice of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, the most senior Teacher in Bön and Rigdzin of the Zhang Zung Nyengyud Dzogchen Lineage, which is as said before an UNBROKEN lineage.

The interrupted Lineage goes back to Sangwa Dupa and Garab Dorje belongs to this Lineage within Bön.
So Zhang Zhung Garab Dorje is member of the Zhang Zhung Dzogchen Lineage, according Bön.


See below the chart of the ZZNG Dzogchen Lineage Masters, a chart made with the support of Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
Buddha Shakyamunni attained buddhahood attained total realization countless eons ago...

this arguments looks are very fanatic-biased.
Yes it is for you, can happen, no doubt about it , but not and never in the world of Bön.
A very fanatic biased opinion, would have Bön ?
The answer is motivated and stored for a very long time in the Bön Culture.
Well you have here the final answer and you have to do it with that.
Can understand very well that this story makes many Tibetans uncomfortable as well many other Bön stories.
man, i meant fanatic because i'm not questioning Bon considerations, I'm not against anything, so i can't understand the rush.

religions always have tryed to step over each other, and i find that a very fanatic thing.

btw, do you know if Sherab Miwo thaught thogal? is there any remaining teaching from him on that?

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:19 pm

Javier Espinoza .t wrote:

btw, do you know if Sherab Miwo thaught thogal? is there any remaining teaching from him on that?
Like explained above:

- Kuntu Zangpo
- Shenlha Ökar
- Shenrab Chenpo

are not some abstract, general spiritual entities similar to the notion of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God but represent respectively Body, Speech and Mind of the Bönpo Buddha Shenrab Miwo.

Conclusion, in the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud Dzogchen Cycle of Teachings we have:

Mengade / Upadesha Teachings which are divided in Trekchöd and Thögal .
Inseparable but for the better understanding teached separate.

Thödgal is also called the practise of the white light in Bön.

============================

By Geshe Mönlam Wangyal ‘Pontsang’



Buddha Tönpa Shenrab the founder of Bön manifested in this worldly realm in order to teach Bön Dharma.

Tönpa Sherab emanates as a concrete embodiment (སྤྲུལ་སྐུ་) of the Kuntu Zangpo.

Tönpa Shenrab while preaching is represented in three forms: in kings attire, wearing the thirteen peaceful ornaments, and in monks robes.
The teachings of Bon were taught at three different times called the three wheels of Bon (བཀའ་འཁོར་གསུམ་) representing the 3 times in which he taught.

- The First turning of the wheel of Bön was when he taught the 9 Ways,
- The second teachings are those of the 4 Doors and the Treasury
- The final teachings were those known as the following-


These teachings are said to be of 3 kinds.

- Their extended explanation (རྒྱུད་ gyü) corresponds to the Nine Ways,
- The middle sized version of the teachings (ལུང་ lung) corresponds to the 4 Doors and the Treasury
- Finally the core or essential explanations (མན་ངག་ mengag) correspond to the Outer, Inner and Secret teachings and those of the Great Perfection (rdzogs chen).

==============
Means one can find Mengade in Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud Dzogchen which is divided in:
- Trekchöd
- Thödgal

============
The 3 representations of Tönpa Shenrab correspond respectively to his appearing as a king, in the thirteen ornaments and as monk respectively.

(སྟོན་པ་རྒྱལ་ཆས་ཅན།) As a king in royal attire. It is said that Tonpa Shenrab was born as a king but later renounced to become a monk. As a king he took care of the basic needs of his subjects and in his first teachings he taught the 9 Ways emphasising the 4 First Ways which deal with the knowledge of the worldly and spiritual matters necessary for everyday life: Medicine, Astrology, Ritual, Divination (important in traditional Tibetan culture for the worldly and spiritual needs of common people).

This also refers to རྒྱུད་ the teachings in their extended version (said to be like the totality of the stars in the sky (རྒྱུད་ཀུན་ཕུན་སུམ་ཚོགས་པ་ནི། མཁའ་ལ་རྒྱན་ཚོགས་བཀྲམ་ལྟར་བཤད) because in the 9 Ways of Bön the whole of the Bön teachings are included.
སྟོན་པ་ལོངས་སྤྱོད་རྫོགས་སྐུ། adorned with the 13 peaceful ornaments (ཞི་རྒྱན་བཅུ་གསུམ་གྱིས་བརྒྱན་པ་, zhi rgyan bcu gsum gyis brgyad pa).

སྟོན་པ་ལོངས་སྤྱོད་རྫོགས་སྐུ།']Tönpa Shenrab is represented here in his body of enjoyment (rdzogs sku) wearing the 13 ornaments such as a crown, earrings, necklaces, bracelets, throne and the five silken garments. The 13 peaceful ornaments are symbols of that perfection and a sign that he has traversed all the 13 stages to Buddhahood (sa bcu gsum).

This corresponds to the Teachings of the 4 Doors and the Treasury and refer to (ལུང་རྣམས་ལྟ་སྤྱོད་བྱེ་བྲག་ནི། གཟའ་སྐར་འཁོར་ལོ་ལྟ་བུར་བཤད་), the mid-size teachings which are wisdom and means and said to be like the sun, moon, planets and constellation. The middle-size version of the teachings emphasize the Tantras and the 10 Perfections (paramita, Tib ཕར་རོལ་དུ་ཕྱིན་པ་).

(སྟོན་པ་ཁྲི་གཙུགས་རྒྱལ་བ།) Tönpa Shenrab in monk robes represents the higher teachings of Dzogchen. These refer to the concise explanations which are called man ngag as (མན་ངག་ཐུགས་རྗེ་དོན་གསལ་བ། མཁའ་ལ་ཉི་ཟེར་འདུས་ལྟར་བཤད་) and it is said to be like the concentrated rays of the sun in the sky.

During the third turning of the wheel of Bön, Tönpa Shenrab is said to have emphasized the teachings of Great Perfection. It is said that Tönpa Shenrab as a king tried to overcome chapha Lagring, the King of the dü demons (བདུད་ཁྱབ་པ་ལག་རིང་) but did not succeed and neither he could succeed later wearing the 13 peaceful ornaments. Finally when he renounced the world and became a monk he could win over Chapha Lagring who asked for his teachings which were those of Dzogchen.
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