Bon Dzogchen

Simon E.
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:51 pm

Well War and Peace has a lot of very detailed narrative too..whether it’s historicity is valid as history, or is simply a work of fiction, is a whole other question.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:21 pm

£$&^@ wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:51 pm
Well War and Peace has a lot of very detailed narrative too..whether it’s historicity is valid as history, or is simply a work of fiction, is a whole other question.
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:21 pm

The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:36 am

There are quite obviously competing hagiographical narratives about the origins of Dzogchen in Bon and Vajrayana, and people in both camps of course would like to claim exclusivity.

The fact is though, both have living Dzogchen traditions and have living masters who (luckily for us), expound the teachings. Whether or not one is "unbroken" is much a question of one's belief as anything else, I suspect Vajrayana traditions - including the sarma traditions- also would claim "unbroken" lineage to the primordial Buddha as well..in fact, I know they do.

Really, I think one needs to be able to recognize when historical narratives are clearly a part of the back and forth the went on between Bon and Vajrayana, and not get flustered by it. I also think it's odd how westerners will cling (and I do mean cling) onto such things as if every single thing that any Dzogchen master says on any such subject must be adhered to literally and completely - including claims about such hagiographical happenings. We live in relative bodies and time space...people's stories are bound to conflict, there's no avoiding it. We should be responsible for ourselves and not expect masters to do our thinking and contextualizing for us all the time.

Bon and Buddhist practitioners will naturally have different views on this, there are Hindus out there who swear that Shakyamuni Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu too.

Perhaps we can just be grown ups and understand that the narratives we subscribe differ from the narratives others follow, it shouldn't be all that difficult.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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lelopa
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by lelopa » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:42 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:36 am
There are quite obviously competing hagiographical narratives about the origins of Dzogchen in Bon and Vajrayana, and people in both camps of course would like to claim exclusivity.

The fact is though, both have living Dzogchen traditions and have living masters who (luckily for us), expound the teachings. Whether or not one is "unbroken" is much a question of one's belief as anything else, I suspect Vajrayana traditions - including the sarma traditions- also would claim "unbroken" lineage to the primordial Buddha as well..in fact, I know they do.

Really, I think one needs to be able to recognize when historical narratives are clearly a part of the back and forth the went on between Bon and Vajrayana, and not get flustered by it. I also think it's odd how westerners will cling (and I do mean cling) onto such things as if every single thing that any Dzogchen master says on any such subject must be adhered to literally and completely - including claims about such hagiographical happenings. We live in relative bodies and time space...people's stories are bound to conflict, there's no avoiding it. We should be responsible for ourselves and not expect masters to do our thinking and contextualizing for us all the time.

Bon and Buddhist practitioners will naturally have different views on this, there are Hindus out there who swear that Shakyamuni Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu too.

Perhaps we can just be grown ups and understand that the narratives we subscribe differ from the narratives others follow, it shouldn't be all that difficult.


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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:04 am

I don’t doubt that there are people in both camps who claim exclusivity Johnny. I know nothing of Bon, but I do think know that in the Vajrayana it is well known that Lineage trees are historical only for a number of generations and that beyond that piety predominates over historicity. I think we need to let go of ideas of one, history, being more importance than the other, piety. I don’t think the Tibetan teachers hold that duality in quite as firm a grip.
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:14 am

£$&^@ wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:04 am
I don’t doubt that there are people in both camps who claim exclusivity Johnny. I know nothing of Bon, but I do think know that in the Vajrayana it is well known that Lineage trees are historical only for a number of generations and that beyond that piety predominates over historicity. I think we need to let go of ideas of one, history, being more importance than the other, piety. I don’t think the Tibetan teachers hold that duality in quite as firm a grip.

I see , you do not know so much about Bön as well many others here aboard, can happen.
Lineage trees are important to see if a Lineage is broken or unbroken.
A powerful Lineage is an unbroken Lineage and that is what many see as to trust / powerful etc.
Zhang Zhung and Uddhiyana / Ürgyen (neighbouring countries) are in history known as cultural places of Tantra and Dzogchen.
The silk road was also near to the 18 Zhang Zhung Kingdoms.
Exchange and integration was here normal.
Because of that we know in Bön Indian Dzogchen, like the Yetri Thasel, composed by Buddha Drenpa Namkha.
What Tibetans have made after 800 about these informations , that i see as heavy political tainted.
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:47 pm

We all must form our own views. I simply do not accept that Lineage trees are anything but banners to rally to. And there is nothing wrong with that. I think to see them as historical records is naive at best and triumphalism at worst.

But each to their own.
Really I should not be contributing to a Bon thread at all..so I will apologise for any distraction and take my leave.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:41 pm

£$&^@ wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:47 pm
We all must form our own views. I simply do not accept that Lineage trees are anything but banners to rally to. And there is nothing wrong with that. I think to see them as historical records is naive at best and triumphalism at worst.

But each to their own.
Really I should not be contributing to a Bon thread at all..so I will apologise for any distraction and take my leave.
Blessings via/from all those Enlightened beings, who are present inside the Lineage Tree (with their energy)
Mengagde out of the Lineage via the actual Rigdzin

Means for many Dzogchenpas emancipation.

Guru Yoga with one of the Great Enlightened Being, who dwells in that energy field of the Refuge Tree, that is very beneficial.

These are for us never historical facts etc.

It is the very reality since the beginning of the founding of that Tree, due to that Buddha (the founder)
We call that in Bon and elsewhere, an UNBROKEN lineage.

Triumphalism that is always mentioned by the outsiders, or the other party.
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:21 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:41 pm
Blessings via/from all those Enlightened beings, who are present inside the Lineage Tree (with their energy)
Mengagde out of the Lineage via the actual Rigdzin
Because enlightened beings make distinctions between "them" and "us"... :roll:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Sennin » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:04 pm

I think the most important lineage is the short lineage of Samantabhadra to ones root Guru to the disciple. Even better if ones root guru is a siddha.
Of course it's important to respect the masters of legend that came before, even so, since it's ones root guru who gives this transmission all the past masters are represented.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:18 pm

Sennin wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:04 pm
I think the most important lineage is the short lineage of Samantabhadra to ones root Guru to the disciple. Even better if ones root guru is a siddha.
Of course it's important to respect the masters of legend that came before, even so, since it's ones root guru who gives this transmission all the past masters are represented.

:good:

Well said !

Lama Näldjor is the core of Tantra and Dzogchen.
The Master is mostly a high realised Sattva like his predecessors, which in turn go back to the source of the Lineage.
And we can see that the Lineage functions, if we consider the amount of Rainbow Bodies who are the fruit of the Teachings / practise.
The one can conclude, that the Lineage functions and is trustable .
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:38 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:18 pm
Sennin wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:04 pm
I think the most important lineage is the short lineage of Samantabhadra to ones root Guru to the disciple. Even better if ones root guru is a siddha.
Of course it's important to respect the masters of legend that came before, even so, since it's ones root guru who gives this transmission all the past masters are represented.

:good:

Well said !

Lama Näldjor is the core of Tantra and Dzogchen.
The Master is mostly a high realised Sattva like his predecessors, which in turn go back to the source of the Lineage.
And we can see that the Lineage functions, if we consider the amount of Rainbow Bodies who are the fruit of the Teachings / practise.
Then, one can conclude, that the Lineage functions and is trustable /confidential .
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:02 pm

£$&^@ wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:47 pm
We all must form our own views. I simply do not accept that Lineage trees are anything but banners to rally to. And there is nothing wrong with that. I think to see them as historical records is naive at best and triumphalism at worst.

But each to their own.
Really I should not be contributing to a Bon thread at all..so I will apologise for any distraction and take my leave.
Actually this is in the general Dzogchen section and anyone can contribute.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:03 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:41 pm

It is the very reality since the beginning of the founding of that Tree, due to that Buddha (the founder)
We call that in Bon and elsewhere, an UNBROKEN lineage.

Triumphalism that is always mentioned by the outsiders, or the other party.
Everyone feels they have an unbroken lineage. So you may be convinced that the Bon lineage is unbroken, but obviously, such a thing is a question primarily of faith in the teaching, so Vajrayana practitioners also believe they have an unbroken lineage to the Adi Buddha etc...this is kind of a truism.

So, we have to deal with the fact that there are simply competing narratives, and live with it.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:50 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:03 pm
Everyone feels they have an unbroken lineage. So you may be convinced that the Bon lineage is unbroken, but obviously, such a thing is a question primarily of faith in the teaching, so Vajrayana practitioners also believe they have an unbroken lineage....

So, we have to deal with the fact that there are simply competing narratives, and live with it.

Couldn’t both have a unbroken lineage?

Does anyone here have enough erudition on the topic of Bön vs Dharma (an false dichotomy?) to show that the two could be mutually exclusive regarding unbroken lineage?

Or is everyone here merely speculating?

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:00 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:50 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:03 pm
Everyone feels they have an unbroken lineage. So you may be convinced that the Bon lineage is unbroken, but obviously, such a thing is a question primarily of faith in the teaching, so Vajrayana practitioners also believe they have an unbroken lineage....

So, we have to deal with the fact that there are simply competing narratives, and live with it.

Couldn’t both have a unbroken lineage?

Does anyone here have enough erudition on the topic of Bön vs Dharma (an false dichotomy?) to show that the two could be mutually exclusive regarding unbroken lineage?

Or is everyone here merely speculating?
Well, both traditions claim an unbroken lineage, and people gravitate towards whatever explanations they have faith in I suppose.

What can anyone do on this subject other than speculate?

There are obviously conflicting narratives in the two traditions. This is not a big problem unless you are someone who gets easily attached to narratives. A Dzogchen practitioner who just cannot abide the tension between different storylines might just be missing the point...so to speak.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:46 am

Perhaps the point is that Dzogchen as a living dynamic process has never needed any kind of back story at all, including not needing a creation myth. What is essential is authentic transmission in the present.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by lelopa » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:58 am

£$&^@ wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:46 am
Perhaps the point is that Dzogchen as a living dynamic process has never needed any kind of back story at all, including not needing a creation myth. What is essential is authentic transmission in the present.
right.... but "they all" claim that it is crucial to have an authentic past (lineage, myths, back-stories) for doing this in the presence...
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:01 am

lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:58 am
£$&^@ wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:46 am
Perhaps the point is that Dzogchen as a living dynamic process has never needed any kind of back story at all, including not needing a creation myth. What is essential is authentic transmission in the present.
right.... but "they all" claim that it is crucial to have an authentic past (lineage, myths, back-stories) to do this in the present.....
Yes, but it gets weird because hagiographies don't operate on the same logic as modern ideas of historicity.

That's the thing, if you try to evaluate them like that, there will always be deep tension. They don't have to make conceptual sense, we are not owed that. If we base our faith on those things, rather than on the primacy of our own direct experience of the lived teachings, then our faith is really a facsimile. That is of course, my own take, and maybe it's my own hubris for thinking it's a better answer than arguing over this stuff...but I do.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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