Bon Dzogchen

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lelopa
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by lelopa » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:04 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:01 am
lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:58 am
£$&^@ wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:46 am
Perhaps the point is that Dzogchen as a living dynamic process has never needed any kind of back story at all, including not needing a creation myth. What is essential is authentic transmission in the present.
right.... but "they all" claim that it is crucial to have an authentic past (lineage, myths, back-stories) to do this in the present.....
Yes, but it gets weird because hagiographies don't operate on the same logic as modern ideas of historicity.

That's the thing, if you try to evaluate them like that, there will always be deep tension. They don't have to make conceptual sense, we are not owed that. If we base our faith on those things, rather than on the primacy of our own direct experience of the lived teachings, then our faith is really a facsimile. That is of course, my own take, and maybe it's my own hubris for thinking it's a better answer than arguing over this stuff...but I do.

... could get weird....

it is not a law of nature
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:17 am

lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:04 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:01 am
lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:58 am


right.... but "they all" claim that it is crucial to have an authentic past (lineage, myths, back-stories) to do this in the present.....
Yes, but it gets weird because hagiographies don't operate on the same logic as modern ideas of historicity.

That's the thing, if you try to evaluate them like that, there will always be deep tension. They don't have to make conceptual sense, we are not owed that. If we base our faith on those things, rather than on the primacy of our own direct experience of the lived teachings, then our faith is really a facsimile. That is of course, my own take, and maybe it's my own hubris for thinking it's a better answer than arguing over this stuff...but I do.

... could get weird....

it is not a law of nature
IME if you've put your toe in both waters, it does get weird. I'd rather put that down to our limitations than to the teachings
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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lelopa
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by lelopa » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:22 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:17 am
lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:04 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:01 am


Yes, but it gets weird because hagiographies don't operate on the same logic as modern ideas of historicity.

That's the thing, if you try to evaluate them like that, there will always be deep tension. They don't have to make conceptual sense, we are not owed that. If we base our faith on those things, rather than on the primacy of our own direct experience of the lived teachings, then our faith is really a facsimile. That is of course, my own take, and maybe it's my own hubris for thinking it's a better answer than arguing over this stuff...but I do.

... could get weird....

it is not a law of nature
IME if you've put your toe in both waters, it does get weird. I'd rather put that down to our limitations than to the teachings
oh, then i must do something wrong, because i put the whole body in both waters and missing the weirdness..... until now.....
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:28 am

lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:22 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:17 am
lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:04 am



... could get weird....

it is not a law of nature
IME if you've put your toe in both waters, it does get weird. I'd rather put that down to our limitations than to the teachings
oh, then i must do something wrong, because i put the whole body in both waters and missing the weirdness..... until now.....
Good for you, I hope it continues along just so. Experiences are like that, different.

For the record, when I say "weird" i'm talking about people and their limitations - me, others, whoever - not the teachings themselves.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:40 am

lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:22 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:17 am
lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:04 am



... could get weird....

it is not a law of nature
IME if you've put your toe in both waters, it does get weird. I'd rather put that down to our limitations than to the teachings
oh, then i must do something wrong, because i put the whole body in both waters and missing the weirdness..... until now.....
You are never doing something wrong with that example.
If you do it according that Lineage then nothing is wrong
If you understand it according that Lineage it is beneficial
If you keep the Lineage pure then nothing goes wrong
If you integrate the essence into your practise of Lineages, then nothing goes wrong by self experience
If you decide that Lineage is better for me to follow than my actual Lineage, then nothing is weird
if you return to the previous Lineage than nothing is wrong with that
If you honour all Buddhas of the past, present and future nothing is weird by that
The best meditation is no meditation

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lelopa
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by lelopa » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:17 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:28 am
lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:22 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:17 am


IME if you've put your toe in both waters, it does get weird. I'd rather put that down to our limitations than to the teachings
oh, then i must do something wrong, because i put the whole body in both waters and missing the weirdness..... until now.....
Good for you, I hope it continues along just so. Experiences are like that, different.

For the record, when I say "weird" i'm talking about people and their limitations - me, others, whoever - not the teachings themselves.
yes, i think i understood that you're talking 'bout people.....
imho the weirdness raise it's head only when you take one water as right, or better, or authentic and the other water "must" be lower, not authentic and stupid at least...

it is better to concentrate on the wetness, temperature & maybe purity of the two waters and not so much on: where does ist come from - who made the hole for the lake, who built the swimming-pool, or who else is swimming in it....
the water doesn't become better if it is from shakyamunis bathroom, or worse if it is from Shenrab's
both waters are H2O
but some people doesn't like that: my water is much more wet than yours ;) because 1000 years ago Mr. Knowledger said so.....
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:29 am

lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:17 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:28 am
lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:22 am


oh, then i must do something wrong, because i put the whole body in both waters and missing the weirdness..... until now.....
Good for you, I hope it continues along just so. Experiences are like that, different.

For the record, when I say "weird" i'm talking about people and their limitations - me, others, whoever - not the teachings themselves.
yes, i think i understood that you're talking 'bout people.....
imho the weirdness raise it's head only when you take one water as right, or better, or authentic and the other water "must" be lower, not authentic and stupid at least...

it is better to concentrate on the wetness, temperature & maybe purity of the two waters and not so much on: where does ist come from - who made the hole for the lake, who built the swimming-pool, or who else is swimming in it....
the water doesn't become better if it is from shakyamunis bathroom, or worse if it is from Shenrab's
both waters are H2O
but some people doesn't like that: my water is much more wet than yours ;) because 1000 years ago Mr. Knowledger said so.....
:good:
The best meditation is no meditation

Simon E.
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:47 am

lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:58 am
£$&^@ wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:46 am
Perhaps the point is that Dzogchen as a living dynamic process has never needed any kind of back story at all, including not needing a creation myth. What is essential is authentic transmission in the present.
right.... but "they all" claim that it is crucial to have an authentic past (lineage, myths, back-stories) for doing this in the presence...
The only thing we can be really sure of is our “grandmother/father” lineage. After that being a culture that was heavily oral, it all gets a bit ...hazy. And that’s ok. What is important is outcome, not structure. I realise that for some it is important to hold an idea of teachers in the 9th or 11th century,,and in terms of devotion that may be true. In terms of history, for me personally it is not at all a crucial matter. Much of what we are discussing is not available to the conceptual mind, and requires no linear historicity. In my view.
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:40 am

£$&^@ wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:47 am
lelopa wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:58 am
£$&^@ wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:46 am
Perhaps the point is that Dzogchen as a living dynamic process has never needed any kind of back story at all, including not needing a creation myth. What is essential is authentic transmission in the present.
right.... but "they all" claim that it is crucial to have an authentic past (lineage, myths, back-stories) for doing this in the presence...
. What is important is outcome, not structure. I realise that for some it is important to hold an idea of teachers in the 9th or 11th century,,and in terms of devotion that may be true. In terms of history, for me personally it is not at all a crucial matter. Much of what we are discussing is not available to the conceptual mind, and requires no linear historicity. In my view.
The outcome is dependent upon the structure or related Lineage and that is based on the wheel of time.

Have so the feeling that we have here old shoes Dzogchen
and a new age approach to Dzogchen.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:10 pm

I simply do not accept your hypothesis concerning the relationship between structure and outcome. And as for references to “new age” Dzogchen, that is merely name calling. I have expressed no view that I have not heard from recognised Vajrayana teachers.
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:22 pm

£$&^@ wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:10 pm
I simply do not accept your hypothesis concerning the relationship between structure and outcome. And as for references to “new age” Dzogchen, that is merely name calling. I have expressed no view that I have not heard from recognised Vajrayana teachers.
Ok no problem that you have another opinion and i did not expect that you would agree.
New age Dzogchen that is what is going on here aboard that is sure and herewith i and others never would agree.
Before i throw away my old shoes, the new shoes have to prove that they are better or an improvement and until now that was not the case.
My views are in accordance with the Masters i have met and that is until now ok, we like old shoes, or Bön Dzogchen the original topic here. :thanks:
There is like explained before,nothing missing in our Bön Dzogchen Lineage, we are very complete and our fruit, are many Rainbow Bodies, the meaning of old shoes Dzogchen, so we function.

The other Dzogchen Traditions also have their fruit and are complete.

Therfore we say sometimes and can agree to that:

Kuntu Zangpo = Samantabhadra
We better do not discuss here who was first.......... :anjali:

But Bönpos insist so on the authenticity of their old shoes Lineage, where Garab Dorje is indirect in involved. :twothumbsup:
The best meditation is no meditation

Simon E.
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:39 pm

No, it is not “sure” at all that what is being suggested is “new age” Dzogchen. I know mainstream teachers who would endorse my interpretation of their words. And to dismiss them as ‘ new age’ teachers is to denigrate them. I wonder if we are seeing a linguistic issue here. I was present recently a teaching where Dzogchen Rinpoche made it clear that the essence remains unchanged but that we need sit lightly to historical claims. I think that applies right across the board in discussions about the Vajrayana. In these matters we have just about reached the stage of demythologising that went on in Christianity circa 1850.
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:23 pm

£$&^@ wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:39 pm
No, it is not “sure” at all that what is being suggested is “new age” Dzogchen. I know mainstream teachers who would endorse my interpretation of their words. And to dismiss them as ‘ new age’ teachers is to denigrate them. I wonder if we are seeing a linguistic issue here. I was present recently a teaching where Dzogchen Rinpoche made it clear that the essence remains unchanged but that we need sit lightly to historical claims. I think that applies right across the board in discussions about the Vajrayana. In these matters we have just about reached the stage of demythologising that went on in Christianity circa 1850.
Sure there are supporters of new age Dzogchen here aboard, no doubt about it, does not the matter who endorses that.
If we compare them to the actual Lineages in Nyingma and Bön, they are in the minority.
But ok, they can have a democratic based voice of contribution, no problem, but they should not stamp that as the general line / vision.
That does not mean that these Masters should be degenerated, but there are supporters of them and non supporters, like with everything is the case.
Historical claims are there enough in Tibet, a country of heavy persecutions and related bad karma.
So here we should not sit so lightly into the saddle, i guess so.
Proves are the Terma teachings which are as well in Bön and Nyingma well known.

Without these terma teachings we would have better Tibetan history like we know it in the west, nevertheless we have experienced equal happenings.
So we have many Bön termas due to bad Tibetan karma , so there are some gaps here and there and to fall into a gap of emptiness, that hurts.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:25 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:22 pm


Ok no problem that you have another opinion and i did not expect that you would agree.
New age Dzogchen that is what is going on here aboard that is sure and herewith i and others never would agree.
Before i throw away my old shoes, the new shoes have to prove that they are better or an improvement and until now that was not the case.
My views are in accordance with the Masters i have met and that is until now ok, we like old shoes, or Bön Dzogchen the original topic here. :thanks:
There is like explained before,nothing missing in our Bön Dzogchen Lineage, we are very complete and our fruit, are many Rainbow Bodies, the meaning of old shoes Dzogchen, so we function.
Excsue me but are you accusing of advocating "new age" Dzogchen? I'm going with the way ChNN talked about it, not a "New Age Dzogchen" teacher. Further, I've heard TWR say some similar things.

But Bönpos insist so on the authenticity of their old shoes Lineage, where Garab Dorje is indirect in involved. :twothumbsup:
I'm pretty sure you don't speak for all Bonpo practitioners, much less teachers, though granted of course Bon practitioners will adhere to their version of things, as will Vajrayana folks.
My views are in accordance with the Masters i have met and that is until now ok
No, our views are our own, inferred from what we've learned, and we alone are responsible for them, not our teachers. There is a difference, and it's important to acknowledge that is so for all of us.
Sure there are supporters of new age Dzogchen here aboard, no doubt about it, does not the matter who endorses that.
If we compare them to the actual Lineages in Nyingma and Bön, they are in the minority.
But ok, they can have a democratic based voice of contribution, no problem, but they should not stamp that as the general line / vision.
That does not mean that these Masters should be degenerated, but there are supporters of them and non supporters, like with everything is the case.
Can you watch the accusatory tone, or simply be more precise with your complaints?
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

TrimePema
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by TrimePema » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:24 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:22 pm
£$&^@ wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:10 pm
I simply do not accept your hypothesis concerning the relationship between structure and outcome. And as for references to “new age” Dzogchen, that is merely name calling. I have expressed no view that I have not heard from recognised Vajrayana teachers.
Ok no problem that you have another opinion and i did not expect that you would agree.
New age Dzogchen that is what is going on here aboard that is sure and herewith i and others never would agree.
Before i throw away my old shoes, the new shoes have to prove that they are better or an improvement and until now that was not the case.
My views are in accordance with the Masters i have met and that is until now ok, we like old shoes, or Bön Dzogchen the original topic here. :thanks:
There is like explained before,nothing missing in our Bön Dzogchen Lineage, we are very complete and our fruit, are many Rainbow Bodies, the meaning of old shoes Dzogchen, so we function.

The other Dzogchen Traditions also have their fruit and are complete.

Therfore we say sometimes and can agree to that:

Kuntu Zangpo = Samantabhadra
We better do not discuss here who was first.......... :anjali:

But Bönpos insist so on the authenticity of their old shoes Lineage, where Garab Dorje is indirect in involved. :twothumbsup:
Kuntuzangpo is Tibetan... Samantabhadra is Sanskrit...
Of course they are equal.

fckw
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by fckw » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:41 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:24 am
Kuntuzangpo is Tibetan... Samantabhadra is Sanskrit...
Of course they are equal.
Equal yes, but also same?

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heart
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by heart » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:42 pm

fckw wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:41 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:24 am
Kuntuzangpo is Tibetan... Samantabhadra is Sanskrit...
Of course they are equal.
Equal yes, but also same?
yes, of course.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:03 pm

I drew my fantasy with all the lines connected so it trumps your fantasy, so there! :rolling: :rolling:
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TrimePema
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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by TrimePema » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:59 am

fckw wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:41 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:24 am
Kuntuzangpo is Tibetan... Samantabhadra is Sanskrit...
Of course they are equal.
Equal yes, but also same?
lol

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Re: Bon Dzogchen

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:15 am

If this continues as a pissing contest, instead of an intelligent discussion, I will shut it down.
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