Being "in the thought"

Simon E.
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by Simon E. » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:30 am

I have reservations about depth discussions of these issues online, having said that, there is the emotional/physical issue to consider. Thoughts do not stay neatly cerebral, there is an accompanying physical echo. Years of learning have stored associated emotions in our muscles and nervous system. As our meditation deepens we can see these as fainter and fainter echos. These can be simply acknowledged and let go (although that letting go is seldom as permenant as we would hope) or we can deploy the breath to dissipate the subtle sensations. There are a number of skandhas involved in even simple Samatha or Shi-nay.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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weitsicht
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by weitsicht » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:50 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:09 pm
Kind of a nit-picky question, but how would you explain the difference between being present "in" a thought in contemplation, vs. following a thought habitually?
Well, in the end everything is just experience, a Variation of the ever-present, unchanging Topic

Maybe your Question can be approached by Looking into what you understand being a "Habit" (where does a Habit begin or end, does it have an inherent nature etc.). Finally, me (thinker) and thought Separation Needs be dissolved (but still respected in their existence).

Maybe this helps (I believe the Video will only be posted for short time)


And Maybe a Question for Namdrol-La if These many Responses didn't bring you yet as far as you wish for ;-)
Enjoy the view.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

loktibrada
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by loktibrada » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:37 am

weitsicht wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:50 pm
Maybe this helps (I believe the Video will only be posted for short time)
:shock: :o :) :D :twothumbsup: :bow:

This: https://ytdl-org.github.io/youtube-dl/index.html might come in handy.

Tata1
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by Tata1 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:39 pm

loktibrada wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:37 am
weitsicht wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:50 pm
Maybe this helps (I believe the Video will only be posted for short time)
:shock: :o :) :D :twothumbsup: :bow:

This: https://ytdl-org.github.io/youtube-dl/index.html might come in handy.
Please remember that this is only for people who recieved dzogchen transmition

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:24 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:16 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:35 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:09 pm
Kind of a nit-picky question, but how would you explain the difference between being present "in" a thought in contemplation, vs. following a thought habitually?
thoughts in contemplation are like clouds, in distraction is like the only cloud.

a narrow attention is a mark of distraction.
By "being in the thought", you are narrowing your attention in some sense, though not the typical one. This is the conundrum. I feel like I know the difference in experience, but I can't put it into words.
yep, in fact one should keep all wide open, no matter the experience.

Lukeinaz
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by Lukeinaz » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:29 pm

Perhaps the child looking in a temple is a useful analogy here.

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LastLegend
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by LastLegend » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:32 pm

No location though! That shifts and changes is consciousness.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:10 am

Misty wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:21 am
I often struggle to cope with all the suffering I see.
Does this kind of investigation and practice help with this?
it depends.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:04 am

Misty wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:21 am
I often struggle to cope with all the suffering I see.
Does this kind of investigation and practice help with this?
It can. I mean if you get an authentic flash of the nature of mind, it pretty much "helps" with everything and anything, while ironically doing nothing at all. For most of us we still need lots of other methods because even if there is recognition, gaining real confidence and stabilization of that is a big part of the practice. We still have our karmic situation and baggage, and working with that is a huge part of Dharma, and that includes Dzogchen or Vajrayana. If you are asking can such practice "do" the same thing as for example Mahayana Lojong practices, then the answer is definitely yes, but it will look and feel a lot different, and it's easy to get lost in thinking one is a "higher practitioner" so doesn't need to worry about x, y, or z.

The trap that's easy to fall int is because it's such a profound glimpse, we create a conceptual version of the experience that we run away to every time we deal with negative emotions etc., confusing indifference for equanimity along the way, At that point it just a fake version of the entire practice, an intellectualized version that basically looks good on paper but serves no function other than ego gratification.

By my understanding (and a teeny bit of experience, along with some frustration) If one is on the right track then all the qualities that one is "developing" in other practices as antidotes to suffering (loving kindness, compassion etc.) are already present in what you have recognized and rest in, and express themselves naturally in daily life, and suffering releases itself.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

Misty
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by Misty » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:14 am

Thank you for explaining this Johnny Dangerous

I've been exposed to an unreliable guide and I'm now trying to sort out what to set aside and what is authentic dharma that is trustworthy and reliable.

I've not had an "authentic flash of the nature of mind" but I think the common experience of things not lasting, that never ceasing, ever changing flow of experience is enough to give confidence, for me, for now.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:31 pm

Misty wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:14 am
Thank you for explaining this Johnny Dangerous

I've been exposed to an unreliable guide and I'm now trying to sort out what to set aside and what is authentic dharma that is trustworthy and reliable.

I've not had an "authentic flash of the nature of mind" but I think the common experience of things not lasting, that never ceasing, ever changing flow of experience is enough to give confidence, for me, for now.
you are in the search for true dharma?

TrimePema
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by TrimePema » Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:34 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:09 pm
Kind of a nit-picky question, but how would you explain the difference between being present "in" a thought in contemplation, vs. following a thought habitually?
The key difference as I understand is whether or not one is creating more karma. Maybe look at 3 statements of Garab Dorje again?

As for the experience, it cannot be described by people like me because an accurately written description would be a pith instruction transmission of the natural state itself. Therefore these types of descriptions are found in the pith instruction Teachings themselves.

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LastLegend
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by LastLegend » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:22 am

The action has two parts: 1) act of paying attention 2) arises intention. Observing the mind directly is a practice to keep intention from arising because intention can be followed by perceptions (include imagery). It’s tricky here because observing the mind is action, and action is one of aggregates. What described as natural state is actually still consciousness clarity state because here is still wrapped by remnants of discriminative subject versus object, so the nature is not fully revealed yet that’s why instructions given to practice until remnants completely dissolved. That’s when we have passed samsara. But still tricky with instructions here at some point habit of observing/mindful needs to be given up too to get to the original consciousness clarity. So less action we use the better teachers often say relaxed or rest right!

I was taught!
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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LastLegend
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by LastLegend » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:26 pm

Notice observing the mind directly or mind simply observes that’s just an example. Key instructions are given by their teachers and people should follow that. Just making a point that exerting too much is falling to action aggregate. It’s tricky stuff people should consult their teachers as often as needed.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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khemmis
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by khemmis » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:14 am

Tata1 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:39 pm
loktibrada wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:37 am
weitsicht wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:50 pm
Maybe this helps (I believe the Video will only be posted for short time)
:shock: :o :) :D :twothumbsup: :bow:

This: https://ytdl-org.github.io/youtube-dl/index.html might come in handy.
Please remember that this is only for people who recieved dzogchen transmition
Direct Introduction is sufficient?

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LastLegend
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by LastLegend » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:00 pm

Please delete my posts here too thanks mods.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

Tata1
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by Tata1 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:05 am

khemmis wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:14 am
Tata1 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:39 pm
loktibrada wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:37 am


:shock: :o :) :D :twothumbsup: :bow:

This: https://ytdl-org.github.io/youtube-dl/index.html might come in handy.
Please remember that this is only for people who recieved dzogchen transmition
Direct Introduction is sufficient?
Yes. Says so in the video

jonesboy
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by jonesboy » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:11 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:09 pm
Kind of a nit-picky question, but how would you explain the difference between being present "in" a thought in contemplation, vs. following a thought habitually?
Before one can be present "in" a thought in contemplation one first has to realize what a thought really is.

Thoughts are flows of energy, sometimes silent, sometimes not.

What is meant by being in the thought is to be able to reside in those flows which results in a beautiful clarity.

The practice of Shine without Object is used to get to the point of feeling thoughts as flows of energy.

Norbu has a very good book on the various stages and talks about being in the flows or as he calls it movement. It is called Dzogchen: The Practice of Contemplation.

florin
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Re: Being "in the thought"

Post by florin » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:14 pm

One way of explaining this is that In one case you have a unique stable open presence whereas in the other this presence is split into subject and object.

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