Subtle body in Dzogchen

PSM
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Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by PSM »

I am looking for all the resources I can on the subtle body in the Dzogchen teachings & hope people here can help with a few pointers. All kind of sources are welcome. Thanks!
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Josef
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Josef »

PSM wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:23 pm I am looking for all the resources I can on the subtle body in the Dzogchen teachings & hope people here can help with a few pointers. All kind of sources are welcome. Thanks!
The anatomical aspects of Dzogchen are described in the 11 vajra topics. You can find this in Buddhahood in this Life and other commentaries on the topics.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
florin
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by florin »

PSM wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:23 pm I am looking for all the resources I can on the subtle body in the Dzogchen teachings & hope people here can help with a few pointers. All kind of sources are welcome. Thanks!
Two very informative books:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Map-Body- ... 8878341398
https://shop.garudabooks.ch/oral-instru ... arity.html
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung »

The best meditation is no meditation
yagmort
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by yagmort »

heres the excerpt from David Germano's "shifting terrain of the tantric bodies" where he quotes Longchenpa:

https://ibb.co/q9CtJGX

https://ibb.co/ZSB5T6w

i am confused as to how to interpret Longchenpas words here? it does sound like he criticises 6 yogas. if that is indeed the case, then i got 2 questions:

1. what is the purpose of dzogchen's tsa-lung/trulkhor practices then? are they really different from 6 yogas in their goals? or Longchenpa criticises all such practices, dzogchen one included, not just sarma ones?

2. is there any sarma lama who did address Longchenpa's critique on the matter?
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Vasana
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Vasana »

florin wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:33 am
PSM wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:23 pm I am looking for all the resources I can on the subtle body in the Dzogchen teachings & hope people here can help with a few pointers. All kind of sources are welcome. Thanks!
Two very informative books:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Map-Body- ... 8878341398
https://shop.garudabooks.ch/oral-instru ... arity.html

The second book is restricted to students who have received transmission and any lung from the author, ChNNR.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying
florin
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by florin »

Vasana wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:46 pm
florin wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:33 am
PSM wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:23 pm I am looking for all the resources I can on the subtle body in the Dzogchen teachings & hope people here can help with a few pointers. All kind of sources are welcome. Thanks!
Two very informative books:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Map-Body- ... 8878341398
https://shop.garudabooks.ch/oral-instru ... arity.html

The second book is restricted to students who have received transmission and any lung from the author, ChNNR.
Sure.
I thought PSM received transmission. But maybe not.
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Vasana
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Vasana »

Fair enough. I don't know either.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying
florin
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by florin »

From what little i’ve read, the subject of this book seems to be related:

https://www.amazon.com/THE-PROFOUND-INN ... 210&sr=1-1
Malcolm
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

PSM wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:23 pm I am looking for all the resources I can on the subtle body in the Dzogchen teachings & hope people here can help with a few pointers. All kind of sources are welcome. Thanks!
My translation of the Blazing Lamp Tantra and is commentary is the single most exhaustive source on this topic in any language other than Tibetan. It will be published by Wisdom on 4/21/202O, and is at the printers now. You should have the transmission and permission to practice thogal in order to read this book.
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

yagmort wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:43 pm
1. what is the purpose of dzogchen's tsa-lung/trulkhor practices then? are they really different from 6 yogas in their goals? or Longchenpa criticises all such practices, dzogchen one included, not just sarma ones?
My understanding (via ChNN's teachings, but this accords with other Dzogchen teachers also) is that in Dzogchen Tsa Lung, Pranayamas etc. are simply part of the large collection of practices for one to become familiar with the natural state, and not the more graduated and exacting process found in the six Yogas. So, you do not need to neccessarily develop along the same lines as you do in the Six Yogas, you can just utilize such practices with less ...structure and restriction I guess.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
Malcolm
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:14 pm
yagmort wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:43 pm
1. what is the purpose of dzogchen's tsa-lung/trulkhor practices then? are they really different from 6 yogas in their goals? or Longchenpa criticises all such practices, dzogchen one included, not just sarma ones?
My understanding (via ChNN's teachings, but this accords with other Dzogchen teachers also) is that in Dzogchen Tsa Lung, Pranayamas etc. are simply part of the large collection of practices for one to become familiar with the natural state, and not the more graduated and exacting process found in the six Yogas. So, you do not need to neccessarily develop along the same lines as you do in the Six Yogas, you can just utilize such practices with less ...structure and restriction I guess.
The principle purpose of Yantra Yoga is to develop capacity in khumbhaka. This in turn is invaluable, because khumbhaka aids one's ability to remain without distraction. Control the body, control the channels; control the channels, control the wind; control the wind, control the bindu. This principle applies all systems of Vajrayāna.
yagmort
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by yagmort »

thanks Johnny
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:17 pm ...Control the body, control the channels; control the channels, control the wind; control the wind, control the bindu. This principle applies all systems of Vajrayāna.
Malcolm, so, if Dzogchen is fine with controlling channels, winds and bindu, what the quoted words of Longchenpa actually imply then? Could you please explain?
Tata1
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Tata1 »

Vasana wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:46 pm
florin wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:33 am
PSM wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:23 pm I am looking for all the resources I can on the subtle body in the Dzogchen teachings & hope people here can help with a few pointers. All kind of sources are welcome. Thanks!
Two very informative books:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Map-Body- ... 8878341398
https://shop.garudabooks.ch/oral-instru ... arity.html

The second book is restricted to students who have received transmission and any lung from the author, ChNNR.
Does this yoga need special longsal transmition or with DI is enough?
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:12 pm My translation of the Blazing Lamp Tantra and is commentary is the single most exhaustive source on this topic in any language other than Tibetan. It will be published by Wisdom on 4/21/202O, and is at the printers now. You should have the transmission and permission to practice thogal in order to read this book.
Malcolm, when you say "... permission to practice thogal," do you mean one's guru has told one that it's time to begin thogal practice, or just generally having received the relevant empowerment, lung, and instructions to practice thogal at such point as one is deemed ready? Sounds like you're meaning the former, yes?
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:53 am thanks Johnny
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:17 pm ...Control the body, control the channels; control the channels, control the wind; control the wind, control the bindu. This principle applies all systems of Vajrayāna.
Malcolm, so, if Dzogchen is fine with controlling channels, winds and bindu, what the quoted words of Longchenpa actually imply then? Could you please explain?
Longchenpa is referring to how these things are used in Maha and anuyoga. Dzogchen uses a slightly different, albeit, related system of channels and bindus, and the goal is not to place the winds in the central channels and so on. If you want to understand this more clearly, you need to receive thogal teachings.
Malcolm
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:00 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:12 pm My translation of the Blazing Lamp Tantra and is commentary is the single most exhaustive source on this topic in any language other than Tibetan. It will be published by Wisdom on 4/21/202O, and is at the printers now. You should have the transmission and permission to practice thogal in order to read this book.
Malcolm, when you say "... permission to practice thogal," do you mean one's guru has told one that it's time to begin thogal practice, or just generally having received the relevant empowerment, lung, and instructions to practice thogal at such point as one is deemed ready? Sounds like you're meaning the former, yes?
The latter.
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Vasana
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Vasana »

Tata1 wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:49 am
Vasana wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:46 pm

The second book is restricted to students who have received transmission and any lung from the author, ChNNR.
Does this yoga need special longsal transmition or with DI is enough?
It needs the respective Longsal transmission as far as I know, but best ask someone else for confirmation.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying
Tata1
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Tata1 »

Vasana wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:48 pm
Tata1 wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:49 am
Vasana wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:46 pm


The second book is restricted to students who have received transmission and any lung from the author, ChNNR.
Does this yoga need special longsal transmition or with DI is enough?
It needs the respective Longsal transmission as far as I know, but best ask someone else for confirmation.
I thought so. Hope yeshi (or someone) starts giving longsal transmission soon
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Tata1 wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:51 pm
Vasana wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:48 pm
Tata1 wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:49 am

Does this yoga need special longsal transmition or with DI is enough?
It needs the respective Longsal transmission as far as I know, but best ask someone else for confirmation.
I thought so. Hope yeshi (or someone) starts giving longsal transmission soon
IIRC this practice is one of the seven Lojongs and is also in the Guru Yoga book, at least a variation....isn't it? How would it require Longsal transmission? Be good to get some clarification on this.

Anywho, on a related note I bought Fabio Anrdicos Khumbhaka DvD a while back, and that is well worth it. AFAIK this requires nothing but DI and the details on it are tremendous if one doesn't have access to someone in person for learning Khumbhaka, really glad I purchased it.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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