Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post Reply
shagrath
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:23 pm

Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by shagrath » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:36 am

Hi all,

I searched all over forum about this one and honestly I could not find the answers. I am sorry if this question or thread already exists somewhere, I just could not find it.

I am aware that Bön and Nyingma are different in some ways like history, using different language or phrases, etc. Lots of religions get intertwined or influenced over time if they share location or they are close proximity or there are some trading going on with different culture. Same happened with christianity and paganism, judaism and platonism, neoplatonism and medieval christianity, chinese chan and taoism, shinto and japanese zen, buddhism and greek philosophy, catolicism and yoruba/voodoo etc. Even christians (both orthodox and catholics celebrate Siddharta Buddha as one of their saints). It is natural process, like in language development/evolution. But one difference to all of this is that both Bön and Nyingma teach dzogchen.

They both have tögal, trekchö, tummo, dream yoga, ngondro (although Bön ngondro is 9x100.000 which is really a lot of practice :smile: ), rainbow body and many things more.

My question is this. Putting aside technical differences (historical claims, different names for same deities, etc), is there any concrete difference in raw practice? (But not in sense Bön does something counterclockwise and Nyingma does it clockwise. Its like in christianity, orthodox make cross up-down-right-left, while catholics do it up-down-left-right. And off course it has different meaning, but essentially is the same. Or like some zen traditions hold left hand in right one, other left in right, some face the wall, others center of dojo.)

I get the idea that Dzogchen is Dzogchen, I can understand it. But for argument sake if one practices Bön Dzogchen doing tögal, trekchö, mother tantras etc, will he miss something from Nyingma practice that include also tögal, trekchö, and six yogas of Naropa? Or could we say that Dzogchen part of both parties is the same, they just differ in additions and foundational practice?

Thank you very much in forward,


PS: I am sorry if this sounds too simplistic, I was trying to make question as clear as possible.

Sādhaka
Posts: 730
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:50 pm

Interestingly, the Bön school nowadays is said to be similar to Gelug. Bön and Gelug are the only two schools that offer the Geshe degree for example. Although I think that the Geshe degree in Gelug is centered around debating their view of Madhyamaka; and the Geshe degree in Bön is I believe centered around the philosophical view aspect of Dzogchen.

And I don’t really know the difference between the title of Khenpo in other schools and the title of Geshe; but Bön also has Khenpo’s as well.

Another thing that sets Bön apart from Nyingma, is that Yungdrung Bön focuses on Dzogchen a bit more; whereas many Nyingmapa’s are generally a little more focused on Mahayoga and such.

As for ‘missing out’ on anything; as far as I’m aware Dzogchen in either tradition is not missing anything, in comparing one tradition’s Dzogchen praxis to the other.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tatpurusa
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:29 pm

As far as I know the only real difference in terms of practice is that in Bön (at least according to Zhang-Zhung Nyengyüd) trekchö and tögal are considered as two aspects of the same practice and practiced together, whereas in Nyingma Dzogchen they are considered two different practices.

One can say that basically the difference is in the lineage, not in the practice. According to Bön, Garab Dorje recieved his teachings from masters of the Bön Dzogchen lineage. Nyingmapas vehemently deny this of course.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:22 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:29 pm
As far as I know the only real difference in terms of practice is that in Bön (at least according to Zhang-Zhung Nyengyüd) trekchö and tögal are considered as two aspects of the same practice and practiced together, whereas in Nyingma Dzogchen they are considered two different practices.

One can say that basically the difference is in the lineage, not in the practice. According to Bön, Garab Dorje recieved his teachings from masters of the Bön Dzogchen lineage. Nyingmapas vehemently deny this of course.
In Buddhist Dzogchen, trekcho and togal are not actually different practices either: but they are separated into two for convenience of explaining different aspects of the path, just as they are in Bon texts like Heartdrops of Dharmakāya.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:23 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:29 pm
According to Bön, Garab Dorje recieved his teachings from masters of the Bön Dzogchen lineage. Nyingmapas vehemently deny this of course.
For very good reason, it isn't true.

tatpurusa
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:23 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:29 pm
According to Bön, Garab Dorje recieved his teachings from masters of the Bön Dzogchen lineage. Nyingmapas vehemently deny this of course.
For very good reason, it isn't true.
I am not about to initiate a discussion on this, just mentioned it as an info.
BTW Buddhists say the contrary: that Dzogchen went from them to Bön.
So, just pick what your preferred beliefs are.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:05 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:23 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:29 pm
According to Bön, Garab Dorje recieved his teachings from masters of the Bön Dzogchen lineage. Nyingmapas vehemently deny this of course.
For very good reason, it isn't true.
I am not about to initiate a discussion on this, just mentioned it as an info.
BTW Buddhists say the contrary: that Dzogchen went from them to Bön.
So, just pick what your preferred beliefs are.
The Buddhist position is demonstrable, the Bonpo position isn't.

tatpurusa
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:05 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:23 pm


For very good reason, it isn't true.
I am not about to initiate a discussion on this, just mentioned it as an info.
BTW Buddhists say the contrary: that Dzogchen went from them to Bön.
So, just pick what your preferred beliefs are.
The Buddhist position is demonstrable, the Bonpo position isn't.
For me personally this debate is uninteressant. What counts, is that there is an authentic lineage of Dzogchen, that split into two at a certain point of time. Both forks are authentic and go back to the very same source before that split - so what?
The rest is politics.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:17 pm


For me personally this debate is uninteressant. What counts, is that there is an authentic lineage of Dzogchen, that split into two at a certain point of time. Both forks are authentic and go back to the very same source before that split - so what?
The rest is politics.
Yes, they are both authentic in so far as they both produce realization, but Bonpo Dzogchen depends on Buddhist Dzogchen, as in so many other things.

User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 2099
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:17 pm


For me personally this debate is uninteressant. What counts, is that there is an authentic lineage of Dzogchen, that split into two at a certain point of time. Both forks are authentic and go back to the very same source before that split - so what?
The rest is politics.
Yes, they are both authentic in so far as they both produce realization, but Bonpo Dzogchen depends on Buddhist Dzogchen, as in so many other things.
Please elaborate how it depends on Buddhist Dzogchen?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

tatpurusa
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:10 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:17 pm


For me personally this debate is uninteressant. What counts, is that there is an authentic lineage of Dzogchen, that split into two at a certain point of time. Both forks are authentic and go back to the very same source before that split - so what?
The rest is politics.
Yes, they are both authentic in so far as they both produce realization, but Bonpo Dzogchen depends on Buddhist Dzogchen, as in so many other things.
Whatever you want.
Your opinion on this one for me is not relevant, because I remember all too well of your anti-Bon stance and those stupid wars with "dorjepizza" in your incarnation called "Namdrol" at e-sangha, resulting in we all know what.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:31 am

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:10 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:17 pm


For me personally this debate is uninteressant. What counts, is that there is an authentic lineage of Dzogchen, that split into two at a certain point of time. Both forks are authentic and go back to the very same source before that split - so what?
The rest is politics.
Yes, they are both authentic in so far as they both produce realization, but Bonpo Dzogchen depends on Buddhist Dzogchen, as in so many other things.
Whatever you want.
Your opinion on this one for me is not relevant, because I remember all too well of your anti-Bon stance and those stupid wars with "dorjepizza" in your incarnation called "Namdrol" at e-sangha, resulting in we all know what.
I’ve never had an anti-Bon stance. I just don’t accept certain bonpo claims about the history of Bon, and that often makes bonpos upset. I also don’t accept certain claims in traditional Buddhist history, this also makes some Buddhists upset. So you should understand I upset everyone, Bon and Buddhist alike.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:34 am

Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:17 pm


For me personally this debate is uninteressant. What counts, is that there is an authentic lineage of Dzogchen, that split into two at a certain point of time. Both forks are authentic and go back to the very same source before that split - so what?
The rest is politics.
Yes, they are both authentic in so far as they both produce realization, but Bonpo Dzogchen depends on Buddhist Dzogchen, as in so many other things.
Please elaborate how it depends on Buddhist Dzogchen?
It’s pretty obvious when you know Tibetan and you know the history of the transmission of Dharma to Tibet. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has provided a pretty clear portrait of pre-Buddhist religion in Tibet, and it his opinion that Bon dzogchen largely depends Buddhist dzogchen.

Sādhaka
Posts: 730
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:02 am

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu also wrote that the Twelve Minor Tantras and the Zhang-Zhung Nyen-Gyud specifically, are authentic Bönpo Dzogchen, and that the Zhang-Zhung Nyen-Gyud descends from Tapihritsa himself from before the time of Garab Dorje; the implication being that the core of Bönpo Dzogchen does not directly depend on Buddhist Dzogchen.

Perhaps he meant Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche, because I do not think that Tapihritsa was that early. Or possibly an editing error somehow? In any case, see pages 11 and 12 of An Oral Commentary to Narag Tongtrug.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:44 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:02 am
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu also wrote that the Twelve Minor Tantras and the Zhang-Zhung Nyen-Gyud specifically, are authentic Bönpo Dzogchen, and that the Zhang-Zhung Nyen-Gyud descends from Tapihritsa himself from before the time of Garab Dorje; the implication being that the core of Bönpo Dzogchen does not directly depend on Buddhist Dzogchen.

Perhaps he meant Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche, because I do not think that Tapihritsa was that early. Or possibly an editing error somehow? In any case, see pages 11 and 12 of An Oral Commentary to Narag Tongtrug.
ChNN specified that only the 12 minor tantras, which are the core of the outer cycle of ZZNG, were pre Buddhist. I think his opinion is overly generous.

Tapihritsa, according to Bon accounts, lived in 8th century, contemporary with Shri Singha , much later than Garab Dorje.

All evidence suggests Bon evolved as a native adaptation of Indian Buddhism between the 8th and early 11th century.

tingdzin
Posts: 1289
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tingdzin » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:07 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:44 am
All evidence suggests Bon evolved as a native adaptation of Indian Buddhism between the 8th and early 11th century.
This is quite wrong. "All the evidence" does not allow that conclusion at all. When I have time I will refute this in detail. For now, since you are a Sanskritist, you ought to read Davidson (in one of his two books on Tibet, easy to find) on the absurdity of trying to find Sanskrit equivalents to Tibetan Dzogchen terms, like "gzhon nu 'bum sku".

tatpurusa
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:20 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:31 am
tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:10 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm


Yes, they are both authentic in so far as they both produce realization, but Bonpo Dzogchen depends on Buddhist Dzogchen, as in so many other things.
Whatever you want.
Your opinion on this one for me is not relevant, because I remember all too well of your anti-Bon stance and those stupid wars with "dorjepizza" in your incarnation called "Namdrol" at e-sangha, resulting in we all know what.
I’ve never had an anti-Bon stance. I just don’t accept certain bonpo claims about the history of Bon, and that often makes bonpos upset. I also don’t accept certain claims in traditional Buddhist history, this also makes some Buddhists upset. So you should understand I upset everyone, Bon and Buddhist alike.
As I wrote above, your opinion on this one is absolutely irrelevant to me.

User avatar
lelopa
Posts: 605
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:03 pm

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by lelopa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:18 pm

when I take a look at historic cards - where Buddhism spread in the 6th or 7th century -
and where Zhangzhung and Oddiyana was.....
maybe Bon & Buddhism have the same source of Dzogchen etc :?:
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:28 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:07 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:44 am
All evidence suggests Bon evolved as a native adaptation of Indian Buddhism between the 8th and early 11th century.
This is quite wrong. "All the evidence" does not allow that conclusion at all. When I have time I will refute this in detail. For now, since you are a Sanskritist, you ought to read Davidson (in one of his two books on Tibet, easy to find) on the absurdity of trying to find Sanskrit equivalents to Tibetan Dzogchen terms, like "gzhon nu 'bum sku".
There is quite a large number of Tibetan dzogchen terms easily reducible to Sanskrit equivalents. And, there is no evidence that term in particular evolved in a bonpo milieu.

Simon E.
Posts: 7451
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:35 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:20 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:31 am
tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:10 am


Whatever you want.
Your opinion on this one for me is not relevant, because I remember all too well of your anti-Bon stance and those stupid wars with "dorjepizza" in your incarnation called "Namdrol" at e-sangha, resulting in we all know what.
I’ve never had an anti-Bon stance. I just don’t accept certain bonpo claims about the history of Bon, and that often makes bonpos upset. I also don’t accept certain claims in traditional Buddhist history, this also makes some Buddhists upset. So you should understand I upset everyone, Bon and Buddhist alike.
As I wrote above, your opinion on this one is absolutely irrelevant to me.
And yet you choose to express that response on a forum clearly labelled “ A Discussion Forum for Mahayana and Vajrayana BUDDHISM”... :shrug:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AJP and 51 guests