Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

tatpurusa
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:44 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:42 pm
Tatpurusa,

Bönpo’s do say that Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche visited Tibet for a brief time.
No. They say that he visited the kingdom of Zhang-Zhung. This is by no means the same.
Tibet might be correct in much later geographical terms, but in historical terms it was the much older kingdom of Zhang-Zhung.
There existed no Tibet at that time at all.

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:50 pm

He visited both; but was in Zhang-Zhung the majority of the time.

The Bön story of his visit to Tibet, was something along the lines of that he was in Tibet for only a short time, because he realized that the people in the Tibetan area of the time were for the most part not ready for Yungdrung Bön, so he left; but prophesied that Yungdrung Bön would eventually be established in Tibet at a later time.

This according to my somewhat vague memory of it.

Basically it sounds like he went to Tibet to further establish whatever karmic connections the Tibetans of the time there had to Bön, to plant a seed for the future.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tatpurusa
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:53 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:50 pm
He visited both; but was in Zhang-Zhung the majority of the time.

The Bön story of his visit to Tibet, was something along the lines of that he was in Tibet for only a short time, and then realized that the people in the Tibetan area of the time were for the most part not ready for Yungdrung Bön, so he left; but prophesied that Yungdrung Bön would eventually be established in Tibet at a later time.

This according to my somewhat vague memory of it.
Sorry, you are making a confusion here. He was visiting Zhang-Zhung and found it unprepared for the teachings of Yungdrung Bön.

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:56 pm

Maybe in what I had read, the author was including the Tibetan area as a satellite of Zhang-Zhang or something.

If I find the source I’d read, I’ll come back and cite it here.

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:57 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:21 pm
All Tibetan scripts descend from Gupta era scripts, including Zhang zhung dmar, and while Tonmi Sambhota himself may be a legendary personage, it is pretty clear there was no official writing system in Tibet prior to the 7th century.
You seem to be joking here.
Someone with your amount of expertise should know that the origins of Dzogchen were non-scriptual, transmitted at the beginning with mind-to-mind only transmissions, and later on by oral transmission.
Just as even the later teachings of Shakyamuni were note written down (but memorized) for hundreds of years.
Writing down began much-much-much later down the line (ie. lineage)
So scriptural evidence has exactly zero evidence regarding the origins of Dzogchen.
The so called rgyal dgongs rgyud is not a mind to mind transmission. Garab Dorje was a Buddha, therefore he had all three kāyas: Samantabhadra is a name for his mind, just as Vajrasattva is a name for his speech. As for the 6.4 million slokas of Dzogchen tantras, these were written down by Mañjuśṛīmitra and divided into the three series, according to the lo rgyus chen mo, and then divided into the four cycles by Sṛī Simha, which were then given to Jñānasūtra and Vimalamitra, etc. The transmission for these texts however was given in symbols, rather than extensive discourses, hence the symbolic vidyādhara lineage. Finally, Vimalamitra, according the lo rgyus chen mo, translated these texts and gave them to Tingzin Zangpo (who hid them in Zhva Gonpa), initiating the so called aural lineage of esteemed persons. However, this aural lineage was accompanied by texts from the beginning, since according to tradition, Vimalamitra translated many Dzogchen tantras into Tibetan, some where hidden as treasures, and others, like the thirteen later lungs, were part of the bka' ma tradition. Naturally, the historical accounts given in the so called sems sde histories and klong sde histories are represent an earlier tradition of Dzogchen teachings than the lo rgyus chen mo, and are significantly different form the lo rgyus chen mo in terms of the details they present. We have independent confirmation of the existence of Sṛī Simha, etc., in the form of an Indian polemical treatise, which dates from the late 10th century and was authored by Mañjuśṛīkīrti, that refutes the views of Sṛī Simha by name and the movement he presented. So one thing we can be quite confident about is that there was a guy name Sṛī Simha, he was a student of Mañjuśṛīmitra, he taught a radical doctrine whereby he asserted only the completion stage was necessary. Finally, we can also be certain that there was a Tibetan named Bagor Vairocana, who was the first person to translated Dzogchen texts in Tibetan, and we can also be certain that Sṛī Simha was a contemporary of Trisong Detsen. Before this period, it is extremely unlikely there was anything remotely like the teaching of the Great Perfection in Tibet. Dzogchen is wholly an Indian-inspired Vajrayāna movement. There is really no evidence that suggests otherwise.

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:58 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:37 pm
Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:29 pm
The bottom line for me, is that I have no issues with anyone stating that Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche existed, or even that he appeared 18,000 years ago.

I have no issue with people saying that Jesus is my lord and savior, likewise, I don't believe it, just as I don't believe that Tonpa Shenrab came to Tibet in the middle of the last ice age.
No Bonpo has ever stated that Tonpa Shenrab lived in Tibet, ever. And you should know it. You are just being demagogic here, come on !!! You are capable of much better than that.
Tonpa Shenrab mostly certainly was imagined to have visited the region we presently refer to as Tibet, regardless of what it was called in the past. Of course, Namkhai Norbu RInpoche presents significant evidence that Shenrab was in fact not a foreign teacher at all, but was from a native clan located in what was once termed Zhang Zhung, and now is referred to as Western Tibet.

Moreover, clan histories such as that of Lce clan in Mangyul, point to a cultural origin in "Tazig" as well. The Khon very likely were a part of this eastern movement of Iranian-speaking people into Tibet as well, since their clan history and the clan history of the Lce resemble each other strongly, but differ on certain points as well. It is possible that that the six brothers who mentioned in the origin of the lCe clan and the three brothers mentioned in the origin of the Khon clan are based on the notion of the Amesha Spenta emanations of Ahura Mazda.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tatpurusa
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:58 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:37 pm



I have no issue with people saying that Jesus is my lord and savior, likewise, I don't believe it, just as I don't believe that Tonpa Shenrab came to Tibet in the middle of the last ice age.
No Bonpo has ever stated that Tonpa Shenrab lived in Tibet, ever. And you should know it. You are just being demagogic here, come on !!! You are capable of much better than that.
Tonpa Shenrab mostly certainly was imagined to have visited the region we presently refer to as Tibet, regardless of what it was called in the past. Of course, Namkhai Norbu RInpoche presents significant evidence that Shenrab was in fact not a foreign teacher at all, but was from a native clan located in what was once termed Zhang Zhung, and now is referred to as Western Tibet.
This is exactly my point. Speaking of Tibet in that geographical region at that time makes as much sense as talking about the United States of America in its geographical location 3000 or 6000 years ago. But with the level of your intelligence and education you definitely should know that ...
Last edited by tatpurusa on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:57 pm
Bagor Vairocana, who was the first person to translated Dzogchen texts in Tibetan,

Who was also a Bönpo, and even upheld Bön as authentic Dzogchen Dharma until the end of his life; even though his primary interest had become Buddhist Dzogchen.

And as you’ve also mentioned before, Guru Chowang, the revealer of the Seven Line Prayer of Guru Rinpoche, said that true Bön is authentic Dzogchen Dharma as well.

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:16 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:07 pm

Who was also a Bönpo, and even upheld Bön as authentic Dzogchen Dharma until the end of his life; even though his primary interest had become Buddhist Dzogchen.
According to whom I wonder. Certainly there are zero contemporary records that can support this claim. And how would this happen, since ZZNG was a single lineage teaching, according to the claims of ZZNG itself until quite late, and the rest of Bon Dzogchen are all termas dating from the 11th century onward. Certainly Bonpos claim Vairocana as one of their own, but it does not really make much sense, honestly.

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:19 pm

Perhaps Vairotsana received Bön Dzogchen, yet never had any reason to transmit it to anyone else.

I’m not aware of the entirety of the Bönpo claims regarding him though.

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:22 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:07 pm
And as you’ve also mentioned before, Guru Chowang, the revealer of the Seven Line Prayer of Guru Rinpoche, said that true Bön is authentic Dzogchen Dharma as well.
Yes, Guru Chowang says positive things about Bon, but he imagines Tongpa Shenrab was from Zhang Zhung, which he also sites as the location of Olmo Lungring:
In order to tame the the confusion of ignorance, the root of samsara, at Wolmo Lungring in the land of Zhang Zhung the hidden treasure of compassion arrived in the form of Shenrab Miwoche [gshen rab mi bo che, i.e. the supreme one of the Shen clan, the greatest of men]. The hidden treasure was concealed in a single intention by all the Tathāgatas in the mind of Shenrab, and he taught the nine vehicles of Bon.
So he also does not really accept the idea that Shenrab was born outside the region of the Himalayas.

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:23 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:19 pm
Perhaps Vairotsana received Bön Dzogchen, yet never had any reason to transmit it to anyone else.
If the Bonpos had Dzogchen teachings circa 770, why would Trisrong Detsen send a teenager to India to recover them? It does not make any sense whatsoever to make this kind of claim.

tatpurusa
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:23 pm
Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:19 pm
Perhaps Vairotsana received Bön Dzogchen, yet never had any reason to transmit it to anyone else.
If the Bonpos had Dzogchen teachings circa 770, why would Trisrong Detsen send a teenager to India to recover them? It does not make any sense whatsoever to make this kind of claim.
Because he was Tibetan, not Zhag-Zhung. Dzogchen at that time was in Zhang-Zhung, not in Tibet.

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:41 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:23 pm
Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:19 pm
Perhaps Vairotsana received Bön Dzogchen, yet never had any reason to transmit it to anyone else.
If the Bonpos had Dzogchen teachings circa 770, why would Trisrong Detsen send a teenager to India to recover them? It does not make any sense whatsoever to make this kind of claim.
Because he was Tibetan, not Zhag-Zhung. Dzogchen at that time was in Zhang-Zhung, not in Tibet.
Then this pretty much kills Bonpo claims that Vairocana could have had Dzogchen teachings, since he was Tibetan too, and not from Zhang Zhung -- your logic, not mine.

tatpurusa
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:41 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:23 pm


If the Bonpos had Dzogchen teachings circa 770, why would Trisrong Detsen send a teenager to India to recover them? It does not make any sense whatsoever to make this kind of claim.
Because he was Tibetan, not Zhag-Zhung. Dzogchen at that time was in Zhang-Zhung, not in Tibet.
Then this pretty much kills Bonpo claims that Vairocana could have had Dzogchen teachings, since he was Tibetan too, and not from Zhang Zhung -- your logic, not mine.
Not at all. Who says that at that time borders were impenetrable? On the contrary, they were nothing like that.
There existed no Trump walls at that time.
At that time Tibet already existed, but had not yet conquered all of Zhang-Zhung.

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:58 pm

Perhaps because Trisong Detsen thought that it would be beneficial for Tibet to have both major streams of Dzogchen transmission? I’m not sure.

Continuing on...


Malcolm wrote:I have no issue with people saying that Jesus is my lord and savior, likewise, I don't believe it, just as I don't believe that Tonpa Shenrab came to Tibet in the middle of the last ice age.

Well I have issue with it, because I personally believe that believin’ in “Jesus” is pretty silly for the most part. But I generally live and let live regarding said belief. I mean the man known as Jesus if he existed, could have been to India and Tibet as some claim, and could he be been a genuine Bodhisattva; and that would be a great thing if it were true, but it is not relevant to my practice personally. And if Christianity is a Vehicle of Gods & Men helping people in samsara even a little bit, then that’s a good thing too. Likewise, if there is a esoteric Christianity in the Orthodox churches or Coptic, or Gnosticism etc. that can lead to the Body of Light, then even better. But again, not relevant to my practice.

Now Shenrab Miwoche appearing 18,000 years ago is not silly to me. And even though this may not be essential to my practice, I have no reason to disbelieve it, even if there is no concrete physical record of it.

Do we have more concrete evidence for the appearance of Tonpa Garab Dorje than we do for Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche? Maybe we do for Sri Simha, yet not necessarily for Tonpa Garab Dorje, even though I personally believe that the latter appeared at one time as well.


Malcolm wrote:I’ve never had an anti-Bon stance. I just don’t accept certain bonpo claims about the history of Bon, and that often makes bonpos upset. I also don’t accept certain claims in traditional Buddhist history, this also makes some Buddhists upset. So you should understand I upset everyone, Bon and Buddhist alike.

To me Dzogchen does allow for two Supreme Nirmāṇakāya‘s.

To me Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche is not being overly generous towards Bön at all, whether for Tibetan nationalist reasons or otherwise.

As I posted a few posts ago:

“And the origin of Dzogchen in the current Kalpa or Mahakakpa according to the Dzogchen Tantras is Khyeu Nangwa Dampa; who appeared much longer ago than Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche’s appearance 4,000 or 18,000 years ago.

Both Bönpo’s and Nyingmapa’s should have no problem with any of this.”


Nyingmapa’s and Dzogchen Community members can continue to hold that Dzogchen in this kalpa or mahakalpa began with Tonpa Khyeu Nangwa Dampa. Bönpo’s can continue to hold that Dzogchen for them began 18,000 years ago with Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche. And everyone is happy.

The other more minor details such as Zhangzhung Garab, Sangwa Dupa and the Buddha Sakyamuni, Guru Padmasambhava’s relation to Drenpa Namkha, Vairotsana, etc., Nyingmapa’s and Bönpo’s can simply agree to disagree and move on.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:59 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:41 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:31 pm


Because he was Tibetan, not Zhag-Zhung. Dzogchen at that time was in Zhang-Zhung, not in Tibet.
Then this pretty much kills Bonpo claims that Vairocana could have had Dzogchen teachings, since he was Tibetan too, and not from Zhang Zhung -- your logic, not mine.
Not at all.
Totally.

According to the 12th century klong sde history, the Vajra Bridge, Vairocana was eight years old when he was placed in a translation training program at Samye. He was sixteen when he was sent to India. If Dzogchen teachings existed in Zhang Zhung at that time, it would not have been necessary at all for Trisrong Detsen to send Vairocana to India, especially if the child already knew Dzogchen teachings from Zhang Zhung.

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:03 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:58 pm

To me Dzogchen does allow for two Supreme Nirmāṇakāya‘s.
No, it really doesn't. Why? Because Dzogchen teachings do not even assert that Garab Dorje was a supreme nirmanakāya.

“And the origin of Dzogchen in the current Kalpa or Mahakakpa according to the Dzogchen Tantras is Khyeu Nangwa Dampa; who appeared much longer ago than Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche’s appearance 4,000 or 18,000 years ago.
Buddhist mythology maintains that Dzogchen teachings actually precede Nangwa Dampa:
In the first eon unfathomable eons ago, in a buddhafield called Natural Array, our teacher, the perfect complete buddha, the greatly compassionate and skillful teacher, offered a golden vajra to a buddha named Great Beautiful Flower and generated the intent to attain supreme awakening.

In his second birth he was born in a northern buddhafield called “Movement of the Wind” as the son of a householder named Excellent Generosity and his wife, Generosity of Supreme Virtue. The town was named Ox-tailed. The son’s name was Rosary of Gems. When he reached 25 years of age, he went to a cave on the eastern side of that continent called Gathering of the Ḍākinīs and sat in the presence of a perfect buddha called Wheel of Excellent Conduct. Having offered a silk scarf and prostrations, he listened carefully to the Dharma. He then passed away.

Again, in place called “Island that Intoxicates with Bliss,” he was born to a man named Light of Lightening and a women named Beauty. The town was called “Holding the Sky” and his name was Generous Hand. At that time, for five years he heard the Dharma from a teacher called Virtuous Wisdom. He then remained in the equipoise of samadhi for a period of seven years. When he reached the age of twenty-five he attained manifest perfect buddhahood on on the peak of a mountain called Arranged Heap of Precious Gems.
This is the origin of the twelve teachers.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tatpurusa
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:06 pm

Here is the Bon lineage tree. No. 3. is Buddha Tonpa Shenrab.
See how after No. 9 Sangwa Düpa, who is Buddha Shakyamuni, it got forked and went to another lineage. No. 6 in that second lineage is Zhang-Zhung Garab Dorje (possibly same as Buddhist Garab Dorje), master of Manjushrimitra.
Lineage.jpeg
Lineage.jpeg (91.72 KiB) Viewed 200 times

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:07 pm

Dzogchen Teachings do say that Tonpa Garab Dorje was a Emanation of a Supreme Nirmāṇakāya.

Therefore I was referring to both the Buddha Śākyamuni and Tonpa Garab Dorje.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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