Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:09 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:06 pm
Here is the Bon lineage tree. No. 3. is Buddha Tonpa Shenrab.
See how after No. 9 Sangwa Düpa, who is Buddha Shakyamuni, it got forked and went to another lineage. No. 6 in that second lineage is Zhang-Zhung Garab Dorje (possibly same as Buddhist Garab Dorje), master of Manjushrimitra.
Yes, I have this. You can believe this Bonpo mythology if you want. I prefer the Buddhist mythology.

tatpurusa
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Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:09 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:06 pm
Here is the Bon lineage tree. No. 3. is Buddha Tonpa Shenrab.
See how after No. 9 Sangwa Düpa, who is Buddha Shakyamuni, it got forked and went to another lineage. No. 6 in that second lineage is Zhang-Zhung Garab Dorje (possibly same as Buddhist Garab Dorje), master of Manjushrimitra.
Yes, I have this. You can believe this Bonpo mythology if you want. I prefer the Buddhist mythology.
Exactly my point here:
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=32716#p515413

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:15 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:09 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:06 pm
Here is the Bon lineage tree. No. 3. is Buddha Tonpa Shenrab.
See how after No. 9 Sangwa Düpa, who is Buddha Shakyamuni, it got forked and went to another lineage. No. 6 in that second lineage is Zhang-Zhung Garab Dorje (possibly same as Buddhist Garab Dorje), master of Manjushrimitra.
Yes, I have this. You can believe this Bonpo mythology if you want. I prefer the Buddhist mythology.
Exactly my point here:
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=32716#p515413
Oh, you misunderstood-- there is no chance Dzogchen existed in Tibet prior to the introduction of Buddhism. I was merely speaking to the mythology of the twelve teachers, not the issue of whether Dzogchen comes from India or not.

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:03 pm
Buddhist mythology maintains that Dzogchen teachings actually precede Nangwa Dampa:
In the first eon unfathomable eons ago, in a buddhafield called Natural Array, our teacher, the perfect complete buddha, the greatly compassionate and skillful teacher, offered a golden vajra to a buddha named Great Beautiful Flower and generated the intent to attain supreme awakening.

In his second birth he was born in a northern buddhafield called “Movement of the Wind” as the son of a householder named Excellent Generosity and his wife, Generosity of Supreme Virtue. The town was named Ox-tailed. The son’s name was Rosary of Gems. When he reached 25 years of age, he went to a cave on the eastern side of that continent called Gathering of the Ḍākinīs and sat in the presence of a perfect buddha called Wheel of Excellent Conduct. Having offered a silk scarf and prostrations, he listened carefully to the Dharma. He then passed away.

Again, in place called “Island that Intoxicates with Bliss,” he was born to a man named Light of Lightening and a women named Beauty. The town was called “Holding the Sky” and his name was Generous Hand. At that time, for five years he heard the Dharma from a teacher called Virtuous Wisdom. He then remained in the equipoise of samadhi for a period of seven years. When he reached the age of twenty-five he attained manifest perfect buddhahood on on the peak of a mountain called Arranged Heap of Precious Gems.
This is the origin of the twelve teachers.

Thank you for posting this^.

I have no reason to not agree with it.


Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:09 pm
You can believe this Bonpo mythology if you want. I prefer the Buddhist mythology.

Exactly. What I posted still stands:

Sādhaka wrote:“And the origin of Dzogchen in the current Kalpa or Mahakakpa according to the Dzogchen Tantras is Khyeu Nangwa Dampa; who appeared much longer ago than Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche’s appearance 4,000 or 18,000 years ago.

Both Bönpo’s and Nyingmapa’s should have no problem with any of this.”

Nyingmapa’s and Dzogchen Community members can continue to hold that Dzogchen in this kalpa or mahakalpa began with Tonpa Khyeu Nangwa Dampa. Bönpo’s can continue to hold that Dzogchen for them began 18,000 years ago with Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche. And everyone is happy.

The other more minor details such as Zhangzhung Garab, Sangwa Dupa and the Buddha Sakyamuni, Guru Padmasambhava’s relation to Drenpa Namkha, Vairotsana, etc., Nyingmapa’s and Bönpo’s can simply agree to disagree and move on.

Well I assumed that Tonpa Khyeu Nangwa Dampa appeared during this kalpa or mahakalpa; but even if I was mistaken on that particular point, it does not contradict my main overall point.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

tatpurusa
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:15 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:09 pm


Yes, I have this. You can believe this Bonpo mythology if you want. I prefer the Buddhist mythology.
Exactly my point here:
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=32716#p515413
Oh, you misunderstood-- there is no chance Dzogchen existed in Tibet prior to the introduction of Buddhism. I was merely speaking to the mythology of the twelve teachers, not the issue of whether Dzogchen comes from India or not.
No, I don't misunderstand you. I mean the
just pick what your preferred beliefs are.
part.

shagrath
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by shagrath » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:21 pm

Thank you all for the answers. I really like dzogchen, and I would like to learn much more about it. I have rare opportunity to learn ZZNG Dzogchen. Hence the question of difference in practice and "missing out".

This escalated much faster then I thought it would, but I have learned many cool historical things to think about.

What I was able to get from this discussion is that in the end dzogchen is dzogchen, with complete practice on both sides. Maybe even the same. Some prior dzogchen teachings may differ, or accents on some teachings but when it comes to pinnacle of teachings in this case dzogchen it does not matter if one learns from bön or nyingma tradition.

Is it like that?

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:25 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:17 pm

Well I assumed that Tonpa Khyeu Nangwa Dampa appeared during this kalpa or mahakalpa; but even if I was mistaken on that particular point; it does not contradict my overall point.
According to the myth, Nangwa Dampa did appear as the first buddha of this eon out of the realization of that buddha's dharmakāya, who lived in the first eon of a previous eon.

We should distinguish myth, legend, and history.

Just as there are Buddhists myths, legends, and history, there are Bonpo myths, legend, and history.

tatpurusa
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:25 pm
Just as there are Buddhists myths, legends, and history, there are Bonpo myths, legend, and history.
What is the meaning of myths, legend, and history in your opinion from the point of view of tögal visions?

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:31 pm

By the beginning of this current eon, would it mean this Kalpa or Mahakalpa?

In any case, yeah it’s not easy to know sometimes regarding what aspects of Bön/Dharma Teachings may or may not be literal; but I have confidence that it is possible to know directly, as one progresses on the Path.

tatpurusa
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:34 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:31 pm
By the beginning of this current eon, would it mean this Kalpa or Mahakalpa?

In any case, yeah it’s hard to know what aspects of Bön/Dharma Teachings may or may not be literal; but I have confidence that it is possible to know directly, as one progresses on the Path.
Yes. Knowing directly is possible from both paths because both lineages are authentic. They are actually the same lineage.

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:39 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:29 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:25 pm
Just as there are Buddhists myths, legends, and history, there are Bonpo myths, legend, and history.
What is the meaning of myths, legend, and history in your opinion from the point of view of tögal visions?
I don't discuss thogal in public forums. It is not suitable.

Malcolm
Posts: 30174
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:40 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:34 pm
Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:31 pm
By the beginning of this current eon, would it mean this Kalpa or Mahakalpa?

In any case, yeah it’s hard to know what aspects of Bön/Dharma Teachings may or may not be literal; but I have confidence that it is possible to know directly, as one progresses on the Path.
Yes. Knowing directly is possible from both paths because both lineages are authentic. They are actually the same lineage.
Yes, which began in India, with Garab Dorje, Vajraprahela. Bonpo Dzogchen lineages split from the Buddhist one sometime in the late 9th, early 10th century. Just around the same time Bon ordination lineages split from the Buddhist Vinaya.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:40 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:31 pm
By the beginning of this current eon, would it mean this Kalpa or Mahakalpa?
Mahākalapa.

tatpurusa
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:39 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:29 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:25 pm
Just as there are Buddhists myths, legends, and history, there are Bonpo myths, legend, and history.
What is the meaning of myths, legend, and history in your opinion from the point of view of tögal visions?
I don't discuss thogal in public forums. It is not suitable.
I would very much appreciate you sharing those thoughts by private messages. I really mean it.
Last edited by tatpurusa on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:42 pm

Here we go again.

As shown above, even by yourself Malcolm, Dzogchen did not start with Tonpa Garab Dorje, nor did it start with Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche.

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:40 pm
Mahākalapa.

Thank you.

Then Tonpa Khyeu Nangwa Dampa was the first Dzogchen Teacher in this current Mahākalapa....
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:46 pm

Also, what then is the origin of the Twelve Small Tantras, that Chögyal Namkhai Norbu said are authentic Bönpo Dzogchen implying not necessarily dependent on the specific Dzogchen Teachings that Tonpa Garab Dorje gave when he appeared?

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:50 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:42 pm
Here we go again.

As shown above, even by yourself Malcolm, Dzogchen did not start with Tonpa Garab Dorje, nor did it start with Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche.
Well, frankly, you need to read the Old Tibetan documents and read what they have to say about Shenrab, actual rituals that address Shenrab and so on. You need to get a subscription to Academia and read what Henk Belzer, etc., have to say on these issues. There is quite a lot of good scholarship on Bon these days. Their conclusions including Samten Karmay's, are pretty much the same as mine.

It is quite clear that, Shenrab has been subject to extensive reshaping from shaman to cosmic world teacher at the hands of the creative writing of Bonpos, beginning with Shenchen Luga. It is not an exaggeration to say that Bon as we know it today is largely his invention.

Of course, Sṛī Siṃha, etc., have also been subject to creative story-telling at the hands of Tibetans. It is simply that we have real third-party evidence of all these Indian figures, Garab Dorje included, and really none at all for these Bonpo figures. Pure vision is one thing; history quite another, as Norbu RInpoche remarks the book I mentioned above.

Malcolm
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:53 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:46 pm
Also, what then is the origin of the Twelve Small Tantras, that Chögyal Namkhai Norbu said are authentic Bönpo Dzogchen implying not necessarily dependent on the specific Dzogchen Teachings that Tonpa Garab Dorje gave when he appeared?
I am aware that ChNN made this observation, I studied with Precious Vase with him directly, so I know exactly what he said about it. He said the twelve minor tantras do not constitute a path, and that everything in Bon Dzogchen that could be construed as a path was borrowed from Buddhism.

He used ZZNG as an example of aural lineages, where the teachings were preserved in kernal form, which could later be unpacked.

He made the same observation about this line from Chanting the Names of Mañjuśṛī, "ye shes mig gcig dri ma med," that is, "The single eye of pristine consciousness is immaculate."

Sādhaka
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Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen

Post by Sādhaka » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:56 pm

All interesting info, and it will take me some time to digest it....

Anyway, if the Twelve Small Tantras are not a complete path, yet they are authentic Bönpo Dzogchen not necessarily dependent on Buddhist Dzogchen, then what exactly is their origin? Does anyone have a good idea?


Edit:

I see that you edited your above post.

Then the Twelve Small Tantras and even Zhang-Zhang Nyen-Gyud are from a Bönpo aural lineage, not necessarily dependent on Buddhist Dzogchen as usually presented by Nyingma....
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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